What are differences between buying from a hatchery versus a breeder?

[Illia]

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No, they wouldn't be heritage because they're not bred to the standard anymore. A bird doesn't have to be rare to be a heritage bird. It just needs to be bred to its original purpose (which the SOP helps tell what that was) and needs to be an old breed (often considered a breed recognized by the APA before 1950)

Rhode Island Reds are a heavily commercialized breed now, but there are still heritage lines. People found a use for them to lay a LOT of eggs and have no other use, and still there are also people who breed them and use them for what they originally were supposed to be - dual purpose birds. Meaty and good in production.

Malays were never commercialized, yet they're more than often heritage. In fact, because of them never being commercialized by hatcheries, in most cases they are heritage. They're the same they were decades ago, and the reason because they're bred for the same purpose now that they were back then.

I believe heritage as ALBC says it is a bird that measures up to its standard characteristics, that can reproduce naturally, that can live a long life. What are you defining as heritage that is different from this ... that a breeder would have, but not a hatchery?

Long life, being bred to the standard.

Hatcheries do not breed to the standard, they breed solely for production and quantity. They also don't breed for long life. In fact, if you get a Brahma from a hatchery, it will reach its final growth at around 7 months old. A true heritage Brahma, like most other heritage breeds, stops growing beyond a year old. And then there's production - A hatchery hen usually burns out at about 4 years old, and beyond that isn't of much use, and in many cases will die due to internal egg issues. A heritage breed will have a long productive live, yet not lay too much, thus not reaching those issues. Take the Quechua for example - The origin of Ameraucanas. . . Because the Quechua has never been commercialized, I've known people to have hens that are 20 years old and still strong.​

 

[Katy]

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Always ask to see pictures of the parent stock.

If you're wanting birds that meet or at least close to the SOP get an APA Standard and read up on the breeds you're interested in so you'll know what to look for.

Join the breed clubs.....most of the time you can find reputable breeders thru them.

Hatcheries aren't selling heritage genetics.

I believe heritage as ALBC says it is a bird that measures up to its standard characteristics, that can reproduce naturally, that can live a long life. What are you defining as heritage that is different from this ... that a breeder would have, but not a hatchery?

If I want heritage birds, I want birds that look like the standard calls for.......not the birds that hatcheries sell that often times aren't even close to looking like they're supposed to. Example: Most people order RIRs from a hatchery expecting to get deep mahogony red birds when in reality most time they're getting production red birds. There's nothing wrong with them and they'll lay lots of eggs, but that also shortens their lifespan....that is just not a heritage bird.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

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Yes, hatchery birds are much smaller. Most will not mother because they have been bred more towards production instead of breeding towards the intended nature of the birds. Oh it's true, you'll have birds that will become broody and will raise birds from hatchery stock, but more likely than not, a bird bred towards the standard will be an almost guaranteed broody bird if the breed is supposed to be broody.

That's the thing, conformation is a HUGE part of showing, however in order to show and continue a line, the birds must be able to reproduce and maintain a healthy state in order to produce eggs that will have good hatchability and to show. There's no use in showing a sick bird and there's no use in keeping birds around that are continuously sick.

Birds bred by breeders grow more slowly. That's all there is to it. A slower growth rate means that the skeleton structure has time to grow and be strong enough to maintain the birds' heavier weight. The overall bird is larger. The skeleton is usually larger than hatchery birds. Birds bred towards the show will not grow as fast and will not mature as fast as hatchery birds but will have a larger carcass as compared to a production bird that is butchered around 6 months of age.

 

[chickenannie]

Hmmm... this is all very interesting. When I'm less tired tommorrow, I'm going to go back over what you've all written and try to make better sense of it. I still feel like there's some things that are not clear. I guess from my perspective, every breeder I've met tells me how much more superior their stock is than anyone else's, so being the skeptic i am..... I get the sense there's a fair amount of self-promotion out there, and I'd really like to be very clear with myself what to look for.

If hatcheries are not really selling "heritage" birds, but people are buying them as such, then that's kind of an issue, isn't it? Especially if maintaining rarer genetics is what's at stake.

The disease question is whole other issue ... how do you know you're not breeding in some weak traits? Is there a defined flock size for a breeder? I'd heard a longterm closed flock had to have 300-400 hens. Do breeders have that many?

And, how to know if a breeder's flock is inoculated or carrying disease without any kind of bonding or recognized performance standard, in terms of vaccinations, disease, etc.?

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

I'm sure some self-promote, but honestly? If someone is after a breed and I have it, I will see if I have what they need specifically. If I do not have what they need, I won't downplay another persons unless I know their birds ARE inferior and they are breeding traits into their birds that will result in poor genetics.

Now, if I know of another person that breeds to higher standards then I will outright give information and contact info regarding that breeder to the person searching to purchase.

I suppose I am an awful person for not having a closed flock. My birds are taken to shows where they encounter disease all the time. If they can fight if off, I know I am going in the right direction. If I medicate and they make it, I'll make a note as to which medicine I used and for how long. If it is reoccurring, I know that whatever the bird has is chronic and could cause flare-ups in future offspring. So far, I have not had that issue in 15 years of showing. I had more disease when I didn't show my birds.

If hatcheries are not really selling "heritage" birds, but people are buying them as such, then that's kind of an issue, isn't it? Especially if maintaining rarer genetics is what's at stake.

Yes and no. Many people are only interested in the eggs, meat and production qualities. To them, there is no huge genetic reason to keep the birds around and is why hatcheries are so successful. Many people overturn their entire flock after every year.​

 

[chickenannie]

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Yes, hatchery birds are much smaller. Most will not mother because they have been bred more towards production instead of breeding towards the intended nature of the birds. Oh it's true, you'll have birds that will become broody and will raise birds from hatchery stock, but more likely than not, a bird bred towards the standard will be an almost guaranteed broody bird if the breed is supposed to be broody.

That's the thing, conformation is a HUGE part of showing, however in order to show and continue a line, the birds must be able to reproduce and maintain a healthy state in order to produce eggs that will have good hatchability and to show. There's no use in showing a sick bird and there's no use in keeping birds around that are continuously sick.

Birds bred by breeders grow more slowly. That's all there is to it. A slower growth rate means that the skeleton structure has time to grow and be strong enough to maintain the birds' heavier weight. The overall bird is larger. The skeleton is usually larger than hatchery birds. Birds bred towards the show will not grow as fast and will not mature as fast as hatchery birds but will have a larger carcass as compared to a production bird that is butchered around 6 months of age.

Some of what you're saying is what I would define as the difference between "heritage" breeds versus commercial birds.... Cornish Cross versus a dual-purpose breed like Orpingtons, for example. Or Leghorns versus Barred Rocks. I've never heard of Orpingtons or Barred Rocks being used commercially for eggs or meat.

I've always defined "heritage" as these qualities: slower growth/stronger skeleton, long life, less egg production and longer egg laying, good mothering. The qualities of overly quick growth, short life span, egg-laying problems,etc. I would associate with any commercialized breed. Therefore, if I'd buy a hatchery Orpington, I would assume it came with these heritage qualities. Are you saying that breeders are just taking that scale farther?

 

[chickenannie]

By the way, I'm a big fan of Langshans!! Great birds!!

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Think of it this way, Leghorns were bred to lay eggs correct? And in large amounts to supply the ever-growing demand of edible eggs.
Cornish X were bred to gain weight very fast and have a high feed conversion.

Orpingtons, Barred Plymouth Rocks, Australorps, etc. are all commercialized by hatcheries in that hatcheries need large amounts of their eggs in order to meet demands by consumers to purchase these birds for their own flocks. Birds that lay fewer eggs will be selected against.

I'm not sure I understand this statement? Can you explain it a little further?

Are you saying that breeders are just taking that scale farther?​

 

[chickenannie]

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I think you did explain it just now (above). That statement makes sense that hatcheries would be selecting for egg production to ensure their own stock. But they must always be selecting for the breed characteristics at some point, or they'd just go off the deep end! Hmmmm... So, what would an old-timer poultry farmer (pre-1950s) have been selecting for, if not eggs. Was it always for dual-purpose?

It's getting quite late here, but again, I'mgoing to pick this thread up again. I really appreciate your taking up the topic....

 

[Illia]

Think of it this way. . .


A Barred Rock began as a dual purpose breed. It was a large, meaty, good producing breed with a long but slow growing lifespan. It started out with a standard, got shown as well as butchered for food and used for egg production. It was a chicken that could actually sustain a farmer - Give him eggs, meat, and still live on its own, mother its own babies.

Then, hatcheries came along with the increasing demand and popularity for having hens as egg laying "pets," shall we say. With that, the dual purpose breeds became the more popular because they still laid well, but weren't as flighty or related to commercial use like Leghorns. Also, they laid brown eggs. . . A big thing with having your own layers for some reason is having brown over white eggs. So, hatcheries bred the original dual purpose Barred Rock, and turned it into a typical, small, run-of-the-mill production laying hen, like all the other popular breeds from hatcheries. Thus, that hatchery bred Barred Rock is no longer heritage. It is a heritage breed, but not heritage bred.

It no longer supplies good meat, no longer lives as long or grows as big, and no longer follows the standard.

But, still, there are breeders from the beginning of the Barred Rock up to even now who continued to have their own lines, following back to the beginnings, of true to type Barred Rocks. These are the heritage birds. They still follow the standard, still offer both meat and eggs, still live long, and are hardly, if not at all, related to the commercialized hatchery Barred Rocks - Just the same that they were when Barred Rocks first came around.


oh irony, my reply started out the same that rodriguezpoultry's did.