What do you look for in Serama chicks and adults?

[redbone]

I can see where you are coming from, but check this out:

You can't say that isn't awesome! Whatever style that is... it looks like a winner to me.

 

[BluegrassSeramas]

He is too cute! That's what they mean when they say they have a "toy soilder" look.

Have any luck getting pics of the parents? Your new chicks are so sweet!!

 

[TurtleFeathers]

I'm sorry, but I don't find the dragon types attractive at all - IMO, they look deformed, unnatural, stiff and uncomfortable. Personally, I would never breed birds like that, but each to their own.

Just my two cents...

Kathy

 

[redbone]

Quote:
Here are the parents...

And chicks are in another thread I think you already saw.... but here is also a direct link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/rsteagall/SeramaChicks34WeeksOld?authkey=Gv1sRgCJbujvrSpKmbIQ#



TurtleFeathers, I don't know if I'd call that true "dragon style". The head is well above the breast if you look at the profile. So, I don't believe this example is too extreme. I wish there was more representation of this type in the US. I realize that the SCNA is trying to breed "Slim Apple" types and calling them American Seramas, but that type isn't much more than a BB Red with a tail and wings pointing straight up and down IMO.

The more I read about Seramas, the more conflicting information that I'm seeing. Take this picture for example:

The one on the right is a drawing by Catherine Stanevich and is supposed to be the "ideal form of the American Serama". The one on the right is a Malaysian Serama that I find looks very close to the drawing. Check out the descriptions here: http://www.scnaonline.org/standards_and_judging.php . With this said, other information on the SCNA site are appears to want to change many aspects on the "standards and judging page". Read here: http://www.scnaonline.org/art3.php and compare the two articles and descriptions. I think many would agree with the conflicting information and views. In comparing the drawing to the Malaysian Serama photo, very seldom am I seeing the American Serama with this type of stature.

I really think that

looks a lot like the drawing on the SCNA website.

I know I'm very much a newbie when it comes to seramas and I appreciate the fact that they were imported before the embargo, but I don't know if I agree with what has been decided or even dictated what will be done with the breed. Again... if I wanted just some normal old small chickens... I'd get any variety of Old English Game and be done with it.

-Ryan

 

[KinderKorner]

The 'dragon' type as you call it, looks too extreme. The birds don't look natural or comfortable. They are not even straight, they are bent back so far their neck can't straighten.

I would never want to breed birds like that, poor things can't really walk, feed, or breed right. It seems unfair to the bird, and franky it isn't pretty just strange.


I think the birds redbone has shown are just beautiful though.
But that is just my opinion.

 

[SeramaLife]

Quote:
Here are the parents...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_RcWGJCzoSV0/Si8Lye3MTXI/AAAAAAAACEU/YIZtNrhhAxo/s800/Serama Group.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RcWGJCzoSV0/Si8LynpAxqI/AAAAAAAACEY/_C5P8ZUw91M/s800/Serama Roo.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RcWGJCzoSV0/S...v76ETR7So/s800/Chicks 2009 023 Flock (2).jpg


And chicks are in another thread I think you already saw.... but here is also a direct link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/rsteagall/SeramaChicks34WeeksOld?authkey=Gv1sRgCJbujvrSpKmbIQ#



TurtleFeathers, I don't know if I'd call that true "dragon style". The head is well above the breast if you look at the profile. So, I don't believe this example is too extreme. I wish there was more representation of this type in the US. I realize that the SCNA is trying to breed "Slim Apple" types and calling them American Seramas, but that type isn't much more than a BB Red with a tail and wings pointing straight up and down IMO.

The more I read about Seramas, the more conflicting information that I'm seeing. Take this picture for example:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RcWGJCzoSV0/Si8OpfY1wFI/AAAAAAAACEk/DLNr_rY3v_c/s800/image002.png

The one on the right is a drawing by Catherine Stanevich and is supposed to be the "ideal form of the American Serama". The one on the right is a Malaysian Serama that I find looks very close to the drawing. Check out the descriptions here: http://www.scnaonline.org/standards_and_judging.php . With this said, other information on the SCNA site are appears to want to change many aspects on the "standards and judging page". Read here: http://www.scnaonline.org/art3.php and compare the two articles and descriptions. I think many would agree with the conflicting information and views. In comparing the drawing to the Malaysian Serama photo, very seldom am I seeing the American Serama with this type of stature.

I really think that

looks a lot like the drawing on the SCNA website.

I know I'm very much a newbie when it comes to seramas and I appreciate the fact that they were imported before the embargo, but I don't know if I agree with what has been decided or even dictated what will be done with the breed. Again... if I wanted just some normal old small chickens... I'd get any variety of Old English Game and be done with it.

-Ryan

The picture you showed may be called "Maylaysian Serama" but it looks more american in type. It is close. Remember, when using the standard picture that the caption is "These drawings shows the ideal form of the American Serama male and female. They represent the type breeders should consider as their main goal and what they should be working towards. The breast is very large and somewhat exaggerated in this drawing to stress the importance of it. The head and tail are shown touching."To quote the American Serama / Malaysian Serama By J.P. Lawrence and B. Fuller, "Most people, at the moment, refer to Malaysian Serama as Serama from Malaysia. I know of several breeders that refer to their birds as Malaysian Serama, but actually breed American Serama. I have done that on occasion. You can see why there might be some confusion regarding names."
The serama in the video you showed differs in that it's wings are longer and it's tail is small and the two main sickles are missing. It is also carried too low. Compare it to this:

 

[BluegrassSeramas]

Ondra you got that before me, but probably did better!

The only discrepancy that I found when I read it for breeding is where Brian Reeder says, "The slim type gives several desirable traits. These include a longer back (which allows more space for internal organs and promotes better reproduction/production)....."
and the Standard says "Back: Short, broad, in profile, shaped like a 'V' with neck and tail forming the vertical sides."

But the standard's picture shows them touching, with practically no back...

I keep birds that I keep have a little of both...a pinch longer in the back to breed to hens with NO back..like my roo Sammy here....

bred to these two...

(Plus hopefully the offspring will have his leg length, more vertical wing, and harder feathers, and the hens will add more breast..)

and roos with NO back
Mr.W

to breed with hens that have a little longer back
Like this hen...

(and hopefully they will get her hard tail feathers)

Later he says..
"Experiments and research show that the longer back (even if hidden by the overall form)....
I guess that is where you hope that the back is long enough to allow organ room, but short enough to be covered by the hackles....

So what I try to do is:
"Proceed to look for birds that are strong in various points and begin to blend them together. Since no one bird is at this time expected to have every desired trait, the development of the American Serama will be a process of combining traits, collecting those traits together in higher concentration and increasing their prevalence in each generation. This is how breeds are developed."

 

[redbone]

Ondra and BluegrassSeramas,

I really appreciate your input and really think that we are all on the same page more so with what we are looking for than what the SCNA is actually practicing.

Some people have mentioned that this video

is "extreme". Keeping proper proportions 1:1 , I did a little photoshop work:

As you can see, what the "ideal form of the American Serama" is VERY close to this bird! In fact, I challenge anyone to get closer. I hope this helps fortify what I'm about to say...

What I'm seeing is that some of the top breeders in the US are breeding seramas that aren't practicing what they preach so to speak. What I'm seeing is birds being bred that have a breast that sits lower, longer backs than I would expect, and birds that stoop forward instead of standing straight up like the drawing or any numerous examples of Malaysian Serama champs. BluegrassSeramas, I liked your mention of "toy soldier" look. This is exactly what got me interested in this bird as well as the mention of "Arnold Schwarzenegger for cocks and Dolly Parton, for hens in full body building pose" here http://www.jerrysseramasllc.com/about.htm . I couldn't agree more.

I also find it a little awkward that some of these top breeders seem so proud of the lineage being "from the finest line of Champions in the world, direct descendants of Sri Pinang, Riting Mass and Angkat" yet many of the traits that made these seramas champions in Malaysia are bred for different "desired traits. When you start changing traits that made something a champion for the sole purpose of making it your own (ie: American Serama), the lineage of what you originally attained gets destroyed.

My above statements are supported from information I found here:

http://www.jerrysseramasllc.com/homepage.htm
http://www.scnaonline.org/art3.php

Anyway, I just wish that the information found at http://www.scnaonline.org/standards_and_judging.php as it is TODAY was TRUELY what breeders were trying to do. Right now, I do not believe this to be the case.

Jessi, do you have pictures of Mr. Wonderful's parents? I'd love to see what they looked like! Also do you ever get chicks from Mr. W's ... hmmm love ? heh. What about Mr. W to a short back hen? Either way... please put me on that list for some chicks! I'll be coming up that way around July 10 weekend to Elizabeth town.

If I'm wrong about any of this or if you have different ideas, please correct me. After all I am an extreme noob to the whole serama thing. Heck, I don't even have full grown seramas yet! heh. I'm all about constructive discussions.

-Ryan

 

[racuda]

redbone, I agree that your example is very close to the American standard, and I will be happy if one of my chicks grows into that.

For those who want to see "extreme", check this out:

 

[SeramaLife]

Quote:
I agree that the type is very close. Remember, in Malaysia, there are four types, Apple, Slim, Ball, and Dragon. I don't know the differences well enough to tell you which it is, but it is probably either Apple or Slim. The American serama is one type (mix of Apple and Slim) with one standard. It wouldn't win at any American serama show because of the differences. It's wings are longer and it's tail is small and the two main sickles are missing. It is also carried too low. Remember that these birds aren't two different species, one is descended from the other. Of course there are similarities.