What is this? Worms inside egg?

[teach1rusl]

UPDATE: The vet confirms this IS threadworms, or capillariasis in the egg.

The federally approved treatment is something that's not affordable nor reasonable for backyard flocks, only commercial operations (like it comes in 500-gal drums). So, we have to go "off-label" for smaller flocks and individual birds. Recommended treatment is Safeguard (Fenbendazole), NOT ivermectin. Dosage is complicated; it is NOT as easy as just putting #X ml per gallon of water in their waterers. More on that below.

He tested six samples (randomly collected from various birds this morning) and said he saw only 2-3 eggs among them. Since I have a large flock, treating them in drinking water is the best approach. My flock free-ranges part of the day, and their enclosed run area is a permanent setup with dirt floor - I cannot rotate their run to fresh grounds - so he said to treat the flock every 3 months, or at least once every 6 months. For as long as I keep chickens.

(My thoughts: I understood that the flock isn't overwhelmed with the worms --- yet. Whichever hen laid this egg, IS. And if I don't treat the flock, it's only a matter of time until they all have them just as bad as she does.)

The vet said the Safeguard will treat the threadworms, also roundworms, whipworms, gapeworms, and others. It does NOT treat tapeworms, but that is a whole different issue and not common.

DOSAGE: I'm using Safeguard for Goats 10% suspension, as recommended. He said the dosage is .005 (that's point-zero-zero-five) mL per KG of body weight, each day for 5-7 days.
.....oh boy.... I have about 52 adult birds! (I could treat chicks too, but those 26 babies are separated from the flock and don't likely need treatment, yet) .....
How to do this:
1. I will have to weigh a sampling of the birds to get an average weight, for the whole flock to be treated. And I will have to count exactly how many birds I have.
2. I will need to measure how much water they will consume, until the water containers are EMPTY, during a 24-hour period.
3. Dose a 24-hour supply of water at the dosage recommended.
(Example: Let's say I have 50 birds to treat, and they average 5 lbs. each. 1 kg = 2.2 lbs. So that's 250 lbs, or 113 kg of chickens total. X .005 dosage = 0.565 ml dosage per day.)
4. Repeat the dose in fresh water each day for 5-7 days.
5. Repeat dosage every few months.

So about #2 above: I figure I can give them a measured amount of plain water, say 5-gallons, in the morning. Then in the evening, measure what's left. The difference is what they consumed. I plan to give them maybe 80% of that total consumption, treated for the full amount, the next morning. Then check their waterers in the late afternoon, add plain water as needed for the rest of the evening. I use several waterers placed around the run, since I have different ages and "troops".

WITHDRAWAL:
Per his licensing and laws, he stated there is a 2-week withdrawal period for selling eggs, and 2-weeks for consuming meat.

Off-the-record: He could not legally tell me whether the eggs or meat would be safe to eat after treating with Safeguard before the end of the withdrawal period. But when I asked him whether he would eat an egg from a chicken that's been treated, before the end of 2 weeks? He said "Yes." Would he eat cooked chicken that's been treated? He said "Yes." I told him I have several cockerels set to be slaughtered next week, should I treat them as well or not? He said it's more important to treat for worms, and it would be fine to butcher since they will be near the end of the withdrawal period anyway.

So there you have it. As best I can remember.
[Edited to correct the conversion lbs to kg]

I do my own fecal testing (for my poultry and my larger livestock). When I’ve seen capillaria eggs, I’ve treated with fenbendazole with excellent results (I’ve only treated if the bird seemed ‘off’ or if I saw quite a few eggs). However, I gave directly, not in the water. I always worry about birds not drinking enough water to get the appropriate amount of med…

 

[BarnyardChaos]

No, your vet is not wrong. He's covering his fanny to a T. He's giving you info within the bounds and guidelines of his license/job. He is going to follow protocol and FARAD.

I did not contact the vet today, realizing finally (duh) he's not going to tell me any different dosage due to the limitations of his license.
But you and @casportpony gave me this (below):

And @DobieLover, thank you for alerting me to a possible math mistake. It made me triple-check my figures.
Recommended dosage of fenbendazole is 50mg/kg.
I believe the common conversion is 1 mg = .001 mL
So, to get 50 mg as in the dosage above, 50 mg X .001 mL = .05 mL
That makes my dosage = .05 mL (fenbendazole) / 1 kg of weight (birds)
Correct?
So, I have exactly 50 birds to dose. Approximate weight is 5 lbs each, or 2.27 kg.
2.27 kg. X 50 birds = 113.6 kg total weight.
.05 mL (fenbendazole) x 113.6 kg (birds) = 5.68 mL dose per day for the whole flock.

Yes, that's about 10 times the amount my vet recommended, and as all of you now have me convinced, is more likely the proper dosage for capillary worms.

I will stop the Safe-Guard for Goats. I have Safe-Guard Aquasol arriving on Monday and will proceed with that at the dosage above.

Y'all finally convinced me.

 

[BarnyardChaos]

Oh, and regarding the warning that fenbendazole should not be administered during molt, as it can cause deformed feathers ..... I'll take my chances. I keep heat in the coop during the worst winter weather, so they won't suffer.

 

[casportpony]

So, to get 50 mg as in the dosage above, 50 mg X .001 mL = .05 mL
That makes my dosage = .05 mL (fenbendazole) / 1 kg of weight (birds)
Correct?
So, I have exactly 50 birds to dose. Approximate weight is 5 lbs each, or 2.27 kg.
2.27 kg. X 50 birds = 113.6 kg total weight.
.05 mL (fenbendazole) x 113.6 kg (birds) = 5.68 mL dose per day for the whole flock.

Safeguard for goats (100 mg/ml)
You're off by a factor of 10, the math for 50 mg/kg and your flock is:
113.6 x 50 / 100 = 56.8 ml

Aquasol (200 mg/ml)
113.6 x 50 / 200 = 28.4ml

 

[BarnyardChaos]

Aquasol (200 mg/ml)
113.6 x 50 / 200 = 28.4ml

I don't understand, but that's okay. I believe you!
Would that be a daily dose, for each of five days?!?!?

 

[casportpony]

I believe the common conversion is 1 mg = .001 mL

Safeguard for goats: 1 mg = 0.01 ml, not 0.001 ml

Safeguard for goats:

 

[casportpony]

I don't understand, but that's okay. I believe you!

Drugs come in different concentrations, right? Like Motrin (ibuprofen), mortin comes in 100 mg, 200 mg, 400 mg, 600 mg, & 800 mg. If you want to take 800 mg you can take 4 of the 200's, 2 of the 400's. or 1 800.

The fenbendazole is similar, it comes in 100 mg/ml (goats suspension) & 200 mg/ml (Aquasol).

Just to make the math easier, let's say we have one chicken that weighs 1kg and we want to give it 50 mg/kg (50 mg per one kilogram). Since one whole syringe has 100 mg, the 1kg hem would get 0.5 ml. the Aquasol has 200 mg in one ml (1/2 of the goat stuff), so you would use 0.25 ml.

When in doubt, use the formula:
Safeguard for goats: 1 x 50 / 100 =0.5 ml
Aquasol: 1 x 50 / 200 =0.25 ml

Would that be a daily dose, for each of five days?!?!?

Yes, five consecutive days.

 

[BarnyardChaos]

I just want to get this right, not just for me, but for everyone else who is and will be viewing this thread. Mistakes can be deadly.

I see your point. I was viewing the "mg" as a measure of the solution, not as a measure of the drug contained in the solution. It was confusing me.

Regardless, the simplest solution (to me) is to follow the product label directions, but modified for capillary worms. The directions as written on the package are for roundworms and cecal worms at 1mg/kg dosage. We know now that capillary worms are treated at the rate of 10-(up to)-50mg/kg dosage. This dosage is to be mixed in the birds' drinking water, for whatever volume they will consume completely in 24 hours.

Below I've copied dosing instructions from the Safe-Guard Aquasol label ( https://vetlabel.com/lib/vet/meds/safe-guard-aquasol/ )
In blue are the labeled and approved dose for roundworms and cecal worms. In (red) I've calculated the same dosage X 50 for capillary worms:
_________________________________________________________

Safe-Guard Aquasol: Chickens: Dose calculation:

The daily dose of 1 mg (50 mg) fenbendazole per kg BW (0.454 mg/lb) (22.7 mg/lb) is equivalent to 0.005 mL (0.25 mL) Safe-Guard® AquaSol per kg BW (0.00227 mL/lb) (0.1135 mL/lb). The required daily volume of product is calculated from the total estimated body weight [kg] of the entire group of chickens to be treated. Please use the following formula:

Total estimated body weight [kg] of the chickens to be treated × 0.005 mL (0.25 mL) = mL Safe-Guard® AquaSol/day.

_________________________________________________________

By that formula, and my flock of 50 birds, total weight about [113.6 kg] x (0.25 mL) = 28.4 mL Safe-Guard® AquaSol/day - for FIVE days.

That's exactly the dose you said, isn't it? LOL

For Safe-Guard for Goats (fenbendazole 10% at 100mg/mL suspension), there are NO product directions on the package for chickens. But it's half the concentration of Aquasol (200mg/ml), so it's simple: Calculate what you need for Aquasol, then double it. I would need maximum 56.8 mL/day for five days.

DO I UNDERSTAND THIS RIGHT, FINALLY???

 

[DobieLover]

DO I UNDERSTAND THIS RIGHT, FINALLY???

Yes.
But only the Aquasol can be put in the water.
You now have to estimate how much water each bird will consume during the day. The tricky part comes with the observation that an actively laying hen can consume twice as much water in a day as a non-laying hen.
This is why I dose birds individually.

 

[casportpony]

Regardless, the simplest solution (to me) is to follow the product label directions, but modified for capillary worms. The directions as written on the package are for roundworms and cecal worms at 1mg/kg dosage. We know now that capillary worms are treated at the rate of 10-(up to)-50mg/kg dosage. This dosage is to be mixed in the birds' drinking water, for whatever volume they will consume completely in 24 hours.

Below I've copied dosing instructions from the Safe-Guard Aquasol label ( https://vetlabel.com/lib/vet/meds/safe-guard-aquasol/ )
In blue are the labeled and approved dose for roundworms and cecal worms. In (red) I've calculated the same dosage X 50 for capillary worms:
_________________________________________________________

Safe-Guard Aquasol: Chickens: Dose calculation:

The daily dose of 1 mg (50 mg) fenbendazole per kg BW (0.454 mg/lb) (22.7 mg/lb) is equivalent to 0.005 mL (0.25 mL) Safe-Guard® AquaSol per kg BW (0.00227 mL/lb) (0.1135 mL/lb). The required daily volume of product is calculated from the total estimated body weight [kg] of the entire group of chickens to be treated. Please use the following formula:

Total estimated body weight [kg] of the chickens to be treated × 0.005 mL (0.25 mL) = mL Safe-Guard® AquaSol/day.

_________________________________________________________

By that formula, and my flock of 50 birds, total weight about [113.6 kg] x (0.25 mL) = 28.4 mL Safe-Guard® AquaSol/day - for FIVE days.

That's exactly the dose you said, isn't it? LOL

That is the correct dose for your flock.
50 birds at 113.6 kg
Dose of 50 mg/kg
Medication strength of 200 mg/ml (20%)
113.6 x 50 / 200 = 28.4 ml

For Safe-Guard for Goats (fenbendazole 10% at 100mg/mL suspension), there are NO product directions on the package for chickens. But it's half the concentration of Aquasol (200mg/ml), so it's simple: Calculate what you need for Aquasol, then double it. I would need maximum 56.8 mL/day for five days.

DO I UNDERSTAND THIS RIGHT, FINALLY???

50 birds at 113.6 kg
Dose of 50 mg/kg
Medication strength of 100 mg/ml (10%)
113.6 x 50 / 100 = 56.8 ml