What kind of Ameraucana do I have?

[BastyPutt]

I really have better things to do than argue about this.

I really don't believe it is an argument, and I am sorry if you feel this way.

It is a general misconception, especially here on BYC and one that I was in the wrong side of for quite awhile. When I started reading into this, I found how upset folks have been over it, which made me really want to look into it - and to make sure I was giving people the best possible info.

 

[NatJ]

For the SOP, there is no skin color requirement, with the exception of a white skin disqualifier.

Mcmurray is arguably the largest Hatchery in the US - certainly has a lot of history. They proudly advertiser their ameraucana as such, while listing green legs. I have a theory as to the APA's SOP for Ameraucana, and how Mcmurrays breeding stock has influenced that.

Have you read the actual SOP description? In the physical book?
If you have, please tell me what it does say about leg color.
I have not (don't care enough to pay the usual high price.)


But if I am trying to track it down from other sources, I find things like this:

McMurray sells "Blue Ameraucana," that are supposed to meet the actual APA standards. They list leg color as "slate."
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue-ameraucana.html

Wikipedia says slate legs on all varieties, and gives their source as Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameraucana

I've read some of the threads on this site, discussing breeding of Ameraucanas to SOP. They all want slate legs.

It is very clear from all sources that I can find, that Ameraucanas of all recognized or project varieties are supposed to have slate legs. So I do not know how "bad" non-slate legs may be (a disqualification, or a fault, or just not the preferred color), but I sure don't see anyone encouraging or trying to breed for any non-slate color.

As I was looking for information, I kept noticing that Araucanas in the US (the tufted breed with no tails) are supoosed to have yellow skin. I do not know whether the skin color difference is deliberate, to make them easier to tell apart, or if there is some other reason for it.

As regards McMurray's "Ameraucanas" that are a mix of colors, I can see why they want to keep calling them that, since they were using the name before the breed was admitted by the APA. But they are not breeding to the existing standard, so for discussions of what the standard is, the leg color of their birds is irrelevant.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Have you read the actual SOP description? In the physical book?
If you have, please tell me what it does say about leg color.
I have not (don't care enough to pay the usual high price.)


But if I am trying to track it down from other sources, I find things like this:

McMurray sells "Blue Ameraucana," that are supposed to meet the actual APA standards. They list leg color as "slate."
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue-ameraucana.html

Wikipedia says slate legs on all varieties, and gives their source as Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameraucana

I've read some of the threads on this site, discussing breeding of Ameraucanas to SOP. They all want slate legs.

It is very clear from all sources that I can find, that Ameraucanas of all recognized or project varieties are supposed to have slate legs. So I do not know how "bad" non-slate legs may be (a disqualification, or a fault, or just not the preferred color), but I sure don't see anyone encouraging or trying to breed for any non-slate color.

As I was looking for information, I kept noticing that Araucanas in the US (the tufted breed with no tails) are supoosed to have yellow skin. I do not know whether the skin color difference is deliberate, to make them easier to tell apart, or if there is some other reason for it.

As regards McMurray's "Ameraucanas" that are a mix of colors, I can see why they want to keep calling them that, since they were using the name before the breed was admitted by the APA. But they are not breeding to the existing standard, so for discussions of what the standard is, the leg color of their birds is irrelevant.

My copy says slate with white under foot color. Some said 'Slate to black' I believe, but they all have slate as a requirement

 

[BastyPutt]

Have you read the actual SOP description? In the physical book?
If you have, please tell me what it does say about leg color.
I have not (don't care enough to pay the usual high price.

Have you read the actual SOP description? In the physical book?
If you have, please tell me what it does say about leg color.
I have not (don't care enough to pay the usual high price.)


But if I am trying to track it down from other sources, I find things like this:

McMurray sells "Blue Ameraucana," that are supposed to meet the actual APA standards. They list leg color as "slate."
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue-ameraucana.html

Wikipedia says slate legs on all varieties, and gives their source as Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameraucana

I've read some of the threads on this site, discussing breeding of Ameraucanas to SOP. They all want slate legs.

It is very clear from all sources that I can find, that Ameraucanas of all recognized or project varieties are supposed to have slate legs. So I do not know how "bad" non-slate legs may be (a disqualification, or a fault, or just not the preferred color), but I sure don't see anyone encouraging or trying to breed for any non-slate color.

As I was looking for information, I kept noticing that Araucanas in the US (the tufted breed with no tails) are supoosed to have yellow skin. I do not know whether the skin color difference is deliberate, to make them easier to tell apart, or if there is some other reason for it.

As regards McMurray's "Ameraucanas" that are a mix of colors, I can see why they want to keep calling them that, since they were using the name before the breed was admitted by the APA. But they are not breeding to the existing standard, so for discussions of what the standard is, the leg color of their birds is irrelevant.

I did not, but I did order the Plymouth Rock one for the nostalgia - and yes, it was pricey.

I was given an "interpretation". I'll copy and paste when I get home this evening.

 

[NatJ]

I did not, but I did order the Plymouth Rock one for the nostalgia - and yes, it was pricey.

I was given an "interpretation". I'll copy and paste when I get home this evening.

Since @JacinLarkwell does have the standard, and just told us what it says, that may not be needed.

 

[NatJ]

Got them from McMurrays who have certified Ameraucanas so I feel pretty confident of their breed.

"Certified Ameraucanas"-- is it on the McMurray website somewhere? Or in the paper catalog? I wanted to read what they had to say about it, but I'm having trouble finding it.

I can find articles from 2021 about McMurray getting 5 breeds certified by the American Poultry Association, but I can't seem to find anything more recent.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/chicks.html
On this page, I can select various filters, including "APA certified" (hiding under "attributes.")
When I do that, the only breeds that appear are the 5 that were certified in 2021 (White Langshan, White Polish, Partridge Plymouth Rock, Buff Plymouth Rock, and Silver Penciled Plymouth Rock.)

So if McMurray has APA certfication for any Ameraucana flock, they are certainly hiding the information where I cannot find it, when I would have expected them to be bragging about it.

 

[BastyPutt]

"Certified Ameraucanas"-- is it on the McMurray website somewhere? Or in the paper catalog? I wanted to read what they had to say about it, but I'm having trouble finding it.

I can find articles from 2021 about McMurray getting 5 breeds certified by the American Poultry Association, but I can't seem to find anything more recent.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/chicks.html
On this page, I can select various filters, including "APA certified" (hiding under "attributes.")
When I do that, the only breeds that appear are the 5 that were certified in 2021 (White Langshan, White Polish, Partridge Plymouth Rock, Buff Plymouth Rock, and Silver Penciled Plymouth Rock.)

So if McMurray has APA certfication for any Ameraucana flock, they are certainly hiding the information where I cannot find it, when I would have expected them to be bragging about it.

Not certain - but I'm out of steam on this one.

Best just to avoid ameraucana threads entirely in the future on my end. Always seem to put a damper on an otherwise beautiful day

I appreciate the effort @NatJ and references @JacinLarkwell

 

[SourRoses]

Ameraucanas of all recognized or project varieties are supposed to have slate legs.

Amen.
Like Nat and others have said, green legs = EE.

I'm working on the Mottled Ameraucana project, and all the breeders in the group strive for slate legs. The mottled gene adds white spots to the legs which most are trying to overcome, but some of us are asking if that's even possible.

Another consideration is that since yellow skin is recessive and white skin dominant, both parents have to have yellow skin for the EE to have it. Meaning they aren't really trying at all. I have a homebred EE from my Ameraucana and a Leghorn, and even she has slate legs.

The fact they still get brown eggs is tied to those modified pea combs which they also aren't working on. Claiming they breed true for egg color should mean all of the offspring only lay blue, period.
It's not a difficult gene to work with, especially now that there are affordable genetic tests that can tell if the bird is homozygous, heterozygous, or lacking the blue egg gene. It's a simple sample mailed off.
They could also fix them by selecting for pure pea combs... but why do the work when they can get away with lying to people?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

"Certified Ameraucanas"-- is it on the McMurray website somewhere? Or in the paper catalog? I wanted to read what they had to say about it, but I'm having trouble finding it.

I can find articles from 2021 about McMurray getting 5 breeds certified by the American Poultry Association, but I can't seem to find anything more recent.

https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/chicks.html
On this page, I can select various filters, including "APA certified" (hiding under "attributes.")
When I do that, the only breeds that appear are the 5 that were certified in 2021 (White Langshan, White Polish, Partridge Plymouth Rock, Buff Plymouth Rock, and Silver Penciled Plymouth Rock.)

So if McMurray has APA certfication for any Ameraucana flock, they are certainly hiding the information where I cannot find it, when I would have expected them to be bragging about it.

Here's what their catalog a few years ago said for them. I swear I had one for last year, but I must have thrown it out.

 

[NatJ]

Another consideration is that since yellow skin is recessive and white skin dominant, both parents have to have yellow skin for the EE to have it. Meaning they aren't really trying at all.

Genetically, that's not quite right. It is possible for both parents to show white skin but carry yellow skin. That's the trouble with recessive genes-- you can remove every bird that shows the trait, but finding the carriers takes a lot more effort.

But in the case of McMurray's flock, if they are listing "green" leg color, I agree they are probably not trying at all on the leg color.

The fact they still get brown eggs is tied to those modified pea combs which they also aren't working on. Claiming they breed true for egg color should mean all of the offspring only lay blue, period.
It's not a difficult gene to work with, especially now that there are affordable genetic tests that can tell if the bird is homozygous, heterozygous, or lacking the blue egg gene. It's a simple sample mailed off.
They could also fix them by selecting for pure pea combs... but why do the work when they can get away with lying to people?

Selecting for pure pea combs is not a complete fix in some flocks.
Birds with pea combs can still lay brown eggs (example: the Brahma breed), just like birds with single combs can lay blue eggs (example: the Cream Legbar breed.) It depends on which way the genes are linked on the chromosomes of each specific bird.

So if their flock has any bird with the pea comb/not-blue linkage, no amount of comb selection would ever fix the egg color, and the only way to clean it up would be to genetically test every bird in the entire flock one year. Of course, if they get it right once, it should stay right forever, unless they add new birds with that problem.

As a personal anecdote, I have owned at least one Easter Egger (from a different hatchery, not McMurray) that was pure for pea comb, but impure for the blue egg gene. This was confirmed both by genetic testing (heterozygous blue egg gene) and by test mating to a single comb/not-blue rooster. All chicks inherited the pea comb gene, with half the daughters laying blue/green and the other half laying brown.

But selecting for proper pea combs should certainly remove the modified pea combs from their flock!