what might I be doing wrong, chickens losing weight and pecking

[embrown]

Thanks for all the thoughts here is what I have in the works:

1. I have called my vet to see if she can look at the poo for me, and she can do that it will be $15 plus the meds if needed. Her thoughts were
a. Give them something to treat coxidiosis as she feels it is way more likely than worms. She says it is in the ground from wild birds. So to just use a med I can get locally and wait a week and see if that improves things without even looking at the poo. She could also see that in the poo, but does not think there is a need to spend the money for the poo test. I do not see any blood, no one seems that sick, I feel it may be a long shot to just medicate for something, "just in case".
B. She thinks it is more cost effective to do a broad spectrum wormer as that will be about $8. and it should work on the small chance they have worms. She said that because there has never been any chickens other than these, there is a small chance it is worms and coxi is more likely as that is carried by wild birds. She feels we can just do the broad spectrum worming after the coxi med and things should improve, but I do not want to treat without cause.

2. I got the suet and hung that in the coop today.

3. I have 2 chickens inside. But the little Isa is preventing the BR from eating and pecks at her if she even tries to get to the food, so the poor girl is up on the perch at the far end of the cage and not eating. It got worse as the evening has gone on, I only have one cage and the Isa is still really peppy so I put her back out in the coop. The br went right to the food and ate a ton.


Does anyone know why this one may be being held away from food.


4. DH is getting the higher protein food on his way home tonight.

5. I have been giving the one girl scrambled egg for several days, and I gave the little ISA an egg to day, and then put two eggs out for the other 4 girls.

6. For clarity, I have not seen any signs of worms in poo, some may have thought I had seen them, but there is no visual sign to the naked eye as far as I know. We checked again today on the poo on the board under their perch and DH did not see any worms or flecks of blood, he took some pictures and is going to look up poo later tonight to see if that gives us any other clues.

7. We have taken a flashlight out to the coop several times in the past weeks, at night, several hours after dark. We have looked with the flashlight around the tale, vent and under the wings and seen no bugs, red or otherwise. We do not feel anything under the boards in the coop, we have seen no mites on the eggs, or felt any crawling on us while out in the coop. Is it possible we are missing them, and if we were to treat the girls, what would you recommend is use to "dust them or clean the entire coop?

8. I have seen them peck at each other and I have seen blood on all pecked birds, mostly around their vents, and in the saddle area in a V shape between the wings and the tale feathers. All are guilty, and I am not really wanting to de-beak. I am pretty confident it is not a molt, is it not too early at only 10 months old? Their heads, necks, chest and wings are all still fully feathered. Some have lost some feathers along there underside, but it is minimal.

8. I have been using pine tar to discourage pecking and to protect the wounds, and have put anti-biotic cream on the areas where there was blood.

9. Kittymomma suggested Blue-coat, I can get that, but we only have general pet stores and a TSC, can anyone tell me where to get blue-coat, or who makes it, or exactly what it is. Or, if it will work differently or better than the pine tar.

10 I have checked the feed as I had a problem this summer when feed in the coop feeder got wet and had gotten moldy while a neighbor watched the chickens as we were camping. So, we actually keep their food inside the house so no moisture can get it and I look at the food when we bring it home. We just fill the coop feeder twice per day so it never sits out there either. I nearly lost a chick that time so I try to be extra careful about that.

11. I will look in to getting a second feeder station, that is a good idea.

12 I weighed all birds again and and the BR inside has gained weight, and the scale may have been not set right originally, but she is still nearly 1 lb, to 1.5 LBS smaller that her breed sisters, as it the little isa. I have started a sheet, and will weigh them every other day to see our progress in a measurable manner. I understand that they are not meat birds but when two are significantly smaller than the others I have to worry and the whole flock is smallerr than birds of the same breed.
So I will feed the eggs, feed the higher protein mash, leave out grit and plenty of free choice shell for them, and hope that I can get the little ones up to the same weight and maybe boost them all toward the norm at the same time. Any idea how long this weight increase may take?

I got 4 eggs today from 6 birds, I know the gal inside is not laying, so there is only one who did not lay out in the coop.

I will try to post pictures.

Keep the ideas coming. You are all great, I do not know what I would do without all of you. When ever I try to research any chicken topic, I always find the "right" and best answers here at BYC.

Beth

 

[chookchick]

Wow, you've really been busy, great job! Thanks for the new layout.
I'd have to disagree with the vet

, if their poos look good and solid (no diarrhea) and they are not standing around fluffed up and looking miserable, then it is very unlikely they have cocci--besides older bird don't often get it.

The worming is really up to you--I would have a fecal done, but you could go ahead anyway. Find out what she wants to use and what worms it kills (ivermectin?). I've been frustrated not having a fecal (did I really get what might be in there?) Sounds like a lot of the problem is them keeping each other from the feed.

I think with the thoroughness you have looked, that you would see any mites or lice. If you can get a handle on the pecking problem, I bet they will start looking better. I'm going to try and find a link to a good "pecking" thread.

Here's an excellent thread (pecking):
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=98165
Here's a thread on keeping them occupied:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=266279&p=2

 

[Kittymomma]

I agree with chookchick, if it was cocci you would be seeing other symptoms. I did have an older bird have problems with it, but she was going thru a really hard molt. In that case she was the only one in the whole flock (31 birds) that had problems, older birds just don't get symptomatic unless something else is going on.

Worms are more likely, if you have dogs, cats, etc. running around that have had worms they shed them in their feces and while chickens don't go around eating it they do scratch and peck at the soil and can pick stuff up like that. It doesn't sound like yours are on the ground a lot, but still more likely than cocci in this case. I'd do the fecal if possible. It's nice to know for sure and if it's not worms you won't be tossing eggs out for two weeks for nothing.

Sometimes they just pick on the weak link. You see it often when they're chicks. They may stop once she gets a little stronger and they have more things to keep them occupied. You'll just have to keep an eye on things and let us know how things go.

You should be able to get blu-kote at your tsc.

They can go thru an early molt, but in your case I don't think it's likely. You're seeing them peck and there aren't feathers everywhere. I had six of mine molt this fall and it looked like a teenage girls slumber party gone amok in the chicken coop.

Keep the updates coming.

 

[embrown]

Thanks for all the thoughts here is what I have in the works as of Wednesday night:

1. I have called my vet to see if she can look at the poo for me, and she can do that it will be $15 plus the meds if needed. Her thoughts were
a. Give them something to treat coxidiosis as she feels it is way more likely than worms. She says it is in the ground from wild birds. So to just use a med I can get locally and wait a week and see if that improves things without even looking at the poo. She could also see that in the poo, but does not think there is a need to spend the money for the poo test. I do not see any blood, no one seems that sick, I feel it may be a long shot to just medicate for something, "just in case".
B. She thinks it is more cost effective to do a broad spectrum wormer as that will be about $8. and it should work on the small chance they have worms. She said that because there has never been any chickens other than these, there is a small chance it is worms and coxi is more likely as that is carried by wild birds. She feels we can just do the broad spectrum worming after the coxi med and things should improve, but I do not want to treat without cause.

2. I got the suet and hung that in the coop today. I also hung one for the girl inside and then will move that outside so there will be two hanging when she can return to the flock.


3. I have 2 chickens inside. But the little Isa is preventing the BR from eating and pecks at her if she even tries to get to the food, so the poor girl is up on the perch at the far end of the cage and not eating. It got worse as the evening has gone on, I only have one cage and the Isa is still really peppy so I put her back out in the coop. The br went right to the food and ate a ton.


Does anyone know why this one may be being held away from food.


4. DH is getting the higher protein food on his way home tonight.

5. I have been giving the one girl scrambled egg for several days, and I gave the little ISA an egg to day, and then put two eggs out for the other 4 girls.

6. For clarity, I have not seen any signs of worms in poo, some may have thought I had seen them, but there is no visual sign to the naked eye as far as I know. We checked again today on the poo on the board under their perch and DH did not see any worms or flecks of blood, he took some pictures and is going to look up poo later tonight to see if that gives us any other clues.

7. We have taken a flashlight out to the coop several times in the past weeks, at night, several hours after dark. We have looked with the flashlight around the tale, vent and under the wings and seen no bugs, red or otherwise. We do not feel anything under the boards in the coop, we have seen no mites on the eggs, or felt any crawling on us while out in the coop. Is it possible we are missing them, and if we were to treat the girls, what would you recommend is use to "dust them or clean the entire coop?

8. I have seen them peck at each other and I have seen blood on all pecked birds, mostly around their vents, and in the saddle area in a V shape between the wings and the tale feathers. All are guilty, and I am not really wanting to de-beak. I am pretty confident it is not a molt, is it not too early at only 10 months old? Their heads, necks, chest and wings are all still fully feathered. Some have lost some feathers along there underside, but it is minimal.

8. I have been using pine tar to discourage pecking and to protect the wounds, and have put anti-biotic cream on the areas where there was blood.

9. Kittymomma suggested Blue-coat, I can get that, but we only have general pet stores and a TSC, can anyone tell me where to get blue-coat, or who makes it, or exactly what it is. Or, if it will work differently or better than the pine tar.

10 I have checked the feed as I had a problem this summer when feed in the coop feeder got wet and had gotten moldy while a neighbor watched the chickens as we were camping. So, we actually keep their food inside the house so no moisture can get it and I look at the food when we bring it home. We just fill the coop feeder twice per day so it never sits out there either. I nearly lost a chick that time so I try to be extra careful about that.

11. I will look in to getting a second feeder station, that is a good idea.

12 I weighed all birds again and the BR inside has gained weight, and the scale may have been not set right originally, but she sis still nearly 1 lb, to 1.5 LBS smaller that her breed sisters, as it the little isa. I have started a sheet, and will weigh them every other day to see our progress in a measurable manner. I understand that they are not meat birds but when two are significantly smaller than the others I have to worry and the whole flock is almost 2 lbs smaller than birds of the same breed/purpose.

So I will feed the eggs, feed the higher protein mash, leave out grit and plenty of free choice shell and plus leave out their normal feed in case they need that too. And, hope that I can get the little ones up to the same weight and maybe boost them all toward the norm at the same time. Any idea how long this weight increase may take?

I got 4 eggs today from 6 birds, I know the gal inside is not laying, so there is only one who did not lay out in the coop.

Keep the ideas coming. You are all great, I do not know what I would do without all of you. When ever I try to research any chicken topic, I always find the "right" and best answers here at BYC.

Beth

 

[Akane]

Did you actually talk to a livestock vet? Wild animals can spread worms just as easy as cocci. It's just as common. If your area has lots of wildlife parasites are more common than if your area doesn't. Most chickens over a couple months old will be immune to cocci. If they are going to get it then it most likely happens around 3-6weeks old. Adult chickens don't get cocci unless there is a very strong source for it. Some people have had an outbreak of cocci in chicks that then got in to the soil in large amounts and made the adults sick. Otherwise I've yet to hear of a sick adult chicken on here with it. The immune system kills cocci but it doesn't kill parasites very well. Any farm with a high concentration of animals wild or otherwise has to deworm regularly irregardless of bringing in new animals or not.

A chicken higher in the pecking order keeping a lower one from eating is not odd at all. They are chickens. They have no problem killing each other in various ways. I'd watch the one being so pushy about food to make sure it isn't your biggest feather picking culprit or keeping others from eating. If it is then it would be best to seperate that one and let the others recover without her.

We just fill the coop feeder twice per day so it never sits out there either.

What does this mean? You should have feed sitting out there all the time. They should never be without food. Chickens should not eat meals. If you have to fill it twice daily and especially if they are running out in between those times I'd get a bigger feeder to avoid that. You might get away with removing food at night to prevent pests but only if you get up early enough so they have food shortly after waking which for a chicken is as soon as the sun comes up.​

 

[embrown]

Well here is the update:

1. to the poster about refilling the food: They always have food, never run out, but rather than filling the feeder all the way, and possibly getting moisture in it, and not being able to see dampness, we fill it half full in the morning and then fill it to this point again at night. This never leaves them without food.

2. The gal inside is up to a solid 4 Lbs. Now this is a gain of at least 2 ounces since Thursday and maybe as much as 3/4 lbs since last weekend. The scale was off, and the person helping me did not notice, but now is correct and consistent since Thursday. Again, ther is one Isa about the same sized, one at 4.5 lbs, and the rest are 5 to 5.5 at 10 months old.

3. Tried to introduce another saa to the gal inside and she initially backed away, then pursued the Isa, the Isa jumped on the perch, the Br jumped up next to her, pecked at her eyes, so the Isa turned around, and the br pecked her bottom and squawking started, I opened the door, and my sweet little Isa came out to me for protection.

4. I was able to get the 24% grower game bird feed, so I am feeding every bird about 2-3 oz each in a wet mash, plus they continue with the normal 18% Layer feed. Plus grit, and shell, and vitamines in the water.

5. 4 eggs today, 5 yesterday.


6. The 5 outside consumed a suet wild bird feeder completely in 2 days. The gal inside never touched hers so I took it for the others. I will buy more tomorrow.

7. . The gal inside will not let any birds in with her, but one and that one did not let her eat. She has not layed. She wakes up every morning singing her egg laying song, but does not lay. We have come to know that she sings this whenever we have left her alone and she can not see or hear us. She shys from our reaching from her, but she does allow us to pick her up and hold her, and never pecks at us or even the kids putting fingers and hands in the cage. She does not mind the cat that walks buy her in the cage...the cat does not mind her either.

7. What next? How long do I keep her in, how can I assimilate her back to the flock, is it possible?

8. I do not think it is coxi, so I am taking a poo sample to the vet Monday, DH was not home in time to do it yesterday Our vet is a small town and small farm vet and works at MSU, and is a chicken owner, so I think she might know what is up, but maybe not. But she should be able to do a poo check.

Just feeling kind of helpless. I want everyone to get along and be healthy. I want to do the right thing. We are new at this and I do not personally know any other chicken owners, my friends think I am nuts, but the love the facebook posts.

Thanks, let me know what you all think.

Beth

 

[chookchick]

So it sounds like things have kind of calmed down with the Isa inside? or are you still having problems with the others?

Is it possible to keep her inside for the rest of the winter? I don't know where you live, but she may well have acclimated to the indoor temperatures, and if it is cold outside, it could be hard on her to go back out. Also--re-introducing a single chicken is hard, and it would be good to have everything smoothed out outside before she is re-introduced. If you are able to free-range at all, that would be a good way to start the introduction process.

I was looking over the figures on your coop and run, and wanted to repeat the importance of getting them enough room. If my reading is correct, they have 4 sq. ft. per hen in the coop, and 7.33 sq. ft. per hen in the "runs" (adding both porch and run numbers together. These are quite crowded--the coop is at the minimum, and the run is below the minimum of 10 sq.ft. per chicken. (I don't like the minimum and prefer 6 in the coop and 15 in the run). I really think it is going to be difficult to get a handle on this until you can provide them more room, they seem to want to "prune" the flock down to fit the space when they are crowded. Is there any way you could enclose the whole "porch" area and incorporate it into the coop? And then add more run area for them? It is especially difficult for them now as the weather is not cooperating, so they are stuck in the coop a lot.

The other hints about keeping them occupied are also helpful (from the thread I posted).