Are They Eating Too Much Calcium?

[Fluffy_Butt_Hutt]

What perris is trying to say is that chicken feed is processed food, no matter if it's organic or not, it's ultra processed. Ultra processed foods are inherently unhealty.
What we call "treats" and considered unhealthy are actually more natural and healthier than processed feed.
Ultra processed foods have been proved to cause a wide number of serious illnesses in humans, from rheumatoid arthritis to cancer and diabetes, there are plenty of studies about it.
Watermelon, minced beef, fruit, cottage cheese, yogurt are all healtier foods than processed feed however they are considered unhealty treats in the chicken community.
If everyone agrees that ultra processed food is unhealty for humans, then it makes no sense to say it's healthy for chickens.
Organic = better than non organic and processed feed = better than natural non processed treats are both outdated concepts. Organic processed food is as bad as non organic processed food.

I get this in most cases with crumble and pellets. However, I don't understand how this can apply to a mash (basically just the ingredients thrown together to my understanding) without the main fillers that can cause fatty liver disease in chickens.

I totally agree that processed food is awful. For example, in the US, we have very unhealthy substitutes and fillers that are cheap that a consumer will eventually get used to tasting. Things like high fructose corn starch and tallow added to most drinks, confectioneries, almost anything that has flour in it. Furthermore, nutrients that can counter the effects of excess starches, saturated fats, and processed flours aren't usually found in cuisine here, such as enough beans and greens.

Peas being the first ingredient in a chicken's feed partially helps combat these risks, but that doesn't mean one should feed chickens Twinkies. This also means corn and soy should not be a large part of a chicken's meal.

 

[Fluffy_Butt_Hutt]

I get that. I was concerned that you were going to start denying your chickens real food in favour of more processed food because of what other people have said in response to your question.

Regarding the extent to which a processed feed (organic or otherwise, expensive or otherwise) delivers everything that a normal backyard chicken needs, consider whether or not it is recommended for breeding birds.

If it is not, then it is missing something(s) that are needed to make healthy chicks. Chicks with deformities are usually the result of the parent birds being fed a nutritionally incomplete feed (whatever claims are made on the bag): it might have the minimum required to produce an egg for the table, but it does not contain all that's needed to grow a healthy chick from that egg. That's why there are 'breeder' rations, and they are not the same as 'layer' rations; they contain nutrients that are not present in so-called/ misleadingly labelled 'complete' layer rations.

I did not know there was such a thing as breeder rations. Could you post a link so I can see the differences in it, just to make sure I cover all the bases. Although, I definitely expect all formulated feeds to lack in aspects or meet the bare minimum for certain things. After all, the animal they're feeding isn't theirs and consumers do have a price limit. I do my best to ensure my chickens have a well-rounded diet, including making sure they get vitamins from something that comes from a plant. I am thinking of introducing some greens, like spinach, to them twice a week. The sunflower seeds have a lot of vitamin e in them. Honestly, what I find hardest to do is find nutritional studies for healthy non-commercial birds, especially those that demonstrate a full life for the bird. That is why I ask the questions here. Don't get me started on how human nutrition is still taught to kids inaccurately using charts made to benefit the food industry's sales.

Thank you as well for making sure I'm aware. I appreciate the information and this is ensuring I check the nutrition of what I give my birds.

 

[Perris]

I did not know there was such a thing as breeder rations. Could you post a link so I can see the differences in it, just to make sure I cover all the bases.

here is an example of such available in this country:
https://www.heygatesfeeds.co.uk/general/poultry-feeds/

scan down the page to find the poultry breeder pellets. It doesn't say much specific about the differences, just that it includes fish oil and 'extra energy and vitamins to maximise the production of viable quality eggs'. But it is one of the most reputable feed firms in this country so it's probably OK (though I don't use any commercial feed myself).

 

[NatJ]

The only treat I questioned before the start of this thread was the watermelon. However, chickens don't have the bacteria we have in our mouths that make our teeth rot.

That is one "treat" that I don't worry about with chickens, because it is mostly water. So I figure they may drink less plain water to compensate, but that is not a problem.



In general, the 10% guideline for treats is meant for cases where you trust the main food to provide everything the chickens need, so you want to avoid them filling up on anything else that would keep them from eating the main food.

If you provide a commercially-produced complete feed and little or nothing else, your chickens will be at least mostly healthy, avoiding the most obvious symptoms of nutritional problems. That is how the recipes for complete feeds were developed, by watching for symptoms of deficiencies or excesses and adjusting how much of what nutrients are needed to avoid those problems during the expected lifespan of a commercially-raised chicken.

I am not saying that is the best way to feed chickens, just giving context for the popular guideline of limiting "treats" to 10% of the diet. At that level, you can pretty much ignore how healthy or unhealthy the treats are, and the chickens will generally be fine anyway.

There are other ways to feed chickens and have them be healthy, similar to how we can feed people in many different ways and have them be healthy. How much to limit treats, and what even counts as a "treat," can be very different when people are feeding their chickens in different ways.

 

[Fluffy_Butt_Hutt]

So, from my understanding, yes the BOSS and BSFL should be more than okay in the amounts I was giving them. Reviewing the full nutritional content of each, it doesn't seem unhealthy, either. Nor does it seem to create an imbalance with my current feed. When I heard they had fat, I assumed it meant high saturated fats, however, a majority of the fat content is unsaturated, a healthy type of fat needed for all animals, and in a ratio making it so the saturated fats in it aren't of worry. Can I take away that it is fine to continue with the initial rough measurements I have been? Also, I've been starting to growing legumes for the birds. I know the 1 lb of fresh grass shared between them isn't enough for them as they definitely want more. I'm really appreciating all the information I got from this discussion! My worries about calcium are pretty much gone, and I'll just keep providing shells at the rate they eat.

 

[Mother of Chaos]

So, from my understanding, yes the BOSS and BSFL should be more than okay in the amounts I was giving them. Reviewing the full nutritional content of each, it doesn't seem unhealthy, either. Nor does it seem to create an imbalance with my current feed. When I heard they had fat, I assumed it meant high saturated fats, however, a majority of the fat content is unsaturated, a healthy type of fat needed for all animals, and in a ratio making it so the saturated fats in it aren't of worry. Can I take away that it is fine to continue with the initial rough measurements I have been? Also, I've been starting to growing legumes for the birds. I know the 1 lb of fresh grass shared between them isn't enough for them as they definitely want more. I'm really appreciating all the information I got from this discussion! My worries about calcium are pretty much gone, and I'll just keep providing shells at the rate they eat.

I think that perhaps in general, you might regard your issue in terms of timing.

If eating BOSS and BSFL (and a forage frame of legumes) inadvertently caused a reduction in eating your main, presumably fully-balanced feed, then you might have a problem.

Whereas if you provided only their complete feed (and outside foraging as well) through the day until ~4-5 p.m., say, and only then offered supplements, you might feel reasonably confident that they had gotten their required (minimum) nutrition already, and that anything they ate in addition was beyond those minimums, they would be getting everything that they needed.

I suppose that I’m trying to express the difference between icing on the cake (supplementary) vs. icing instead of the cake.

 

[rosemarythyme]

So, from my understanding, yes the BOSS and BSFL should be more than okay in the amounts I was giving them. Reviewing the full nutritional content of each, it doesn't seem unhealthy, either. Nor does it seem to create an imbalance with my current feed. When I heard they had fat, I assumed it meant high saturated fats, however, a majority of the fat content is unsaturated, a healthy type of fat needed for all animals, and in a ratio making it so the saturated fats in it aren't of worry. Can I take away that it is fine to continue with the initial rough measurements I have been? Also, I've been starting to growing legumes for the birds. I know the 1 lb of fresh grass shared between them isn't enough for them as they definitely want more. I'm really appreciating all the information I got from this discussion! My worries about calcium are pretty much gone, and I'll just keep providing shells at the rate they eat.

Long story short everyone has their own way of managing their flocks as you've seen by the variety of responses here. And I don't know what your set up is like. In general folks who advocate for more "natural" chicken raising free range and have ample mixed forage to allow the birds to get most of their nutrition from foraging.

As I don't breed, don't have roosters, don't raise birds for consumption and don't free range (mostly), I aim to provide the best feed I can source locally without any bells and whistles.

 

[FrostRanger]

Long story short everyone has their own way of managing their flocks as you've seen by the variety of responses here. And I don't know what your set up is like. In general folks who advocate for more "natural" chicken raising free range and have ample mixed forage to allow the birds to get most of their nutrition from foraging.

As I don't breed, don't have roosters, don't raise birds for consumption and don't free range (mostly), I aim to provide the best feed I can source locally without any bells and whistles.

And to add to that their flocks are more active and can handle the extra calories better than a flock kept in confinement. Not to mention they balance their diet around those extra. All those extras will just cause issues with obesity and nutrient imbalances for the typical flock kept under the usual conditions of confinement and on a balanced commercial feed

 

[2 Acres]

Well of course they were happy to chow down on the treats - put a plate of chocolate chip cookies in front of the typical human and even if they're full they'll find way to make room for them!

I'd aim to cut it down to maybe 1/4 cup total or less a day. BOSS and BSFL are both fatty compared to their normal feed, and while fat hens look cute they're also more likely to have health issues because of that: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ts-story-please-dont-overfeed-treats.1593329/

Guess what this human is doing right now They're chowed....

 

[2 Acres]

As everyone says, chickens know how to pace themselves and eat what's right for them, but now I'm wondering to what extent?

I give my 9 pullets free-choice oyster and baked reused egg shells, however, they're going through what I think to be a crazy amount.

All of my flock are Barred Rocks and Barred Rock mixed with BYMs (said to lay 4-5 times a week). Two pullets have started five weeks ago and have been laying consistently for three weeks at combined 11 (BYM lays 6, BR lays 5) a week. Two have laid their first egg yesterday at 20-21 weeks. Three are due to lay their first egg any time now at 20-21 weeks. Two are 12 week old Blue Ameraucanas.

Together, they eat the equivalent of ~7 baked regular size egg shells a day + an estimated 40 grams of oyster flakes. They get a mix of Scratch & Peck grower mash (calcium min 0.8%, max 1.3%) and Kalmbach layer pellets (calcium min 3.50%, max 4.20%) which is mixed respectively 4 parts to 1 and 8 to 9 cups given daily. Additionally, their daily feed consists of around 1 cup dried BSFL (3.25% min calcium) and 1/2 cup BOSS a day (~72g calcium). They also get grass (1 lb every day because cutting grass is tedious) and probably 2 lbs of watermelon (every 4-5 days). They vacuum up any dropped feather and eat that too.

What has specifically changed recently? The Ameraucanas were slowly introduced to the flock for six weeks and have been sleeping in the coop since two weeks ago. As the younger ones grow, they've been sometimes needing 1 more cup of the mixed feed a day. A little over a week ago, I started giving them baked egg shells in addition to their oyster. Their consumption of oyster did not go down (they still finish almost all of it) but they were munching on the baked egg shells too (I bake 2 dozen shells twice a week at a time, they finish it within 2 days).

I've been noticing there are some signs of excess calcium recently. With the first-time layers, it makes sense why they have calcium deposits. However, with the almost daily layers, why am I seeing calcium deposits and some wrinkling in the shells? For the past two days they've each laid an egg like this, but they've never laid something similar before since they've been consistent. I am not seeing a full extra calcium coating or weird shaped eggs, just eggs speckled chocolate brown and white and there was some wrinkling in the largest one too. The wrinkling might be caused by the egg being bigger than her previous eggs, stressing her out. Additionally, I never expected them to lay this much, is the amount of calcium they are consuming forcing them to lay eggs more often to protect their liver, or is it feed & nutrition quality in comparison to commercial? The oyster and baked shells are separate but as close as 1 ft to where I might spread out their daily feed, are they getting confused? Are my top of pecking order (the ones laying) preventing others from eating treats and therefore eating all that excess calcium themselves (possible, because they eat the most treats, but the others get some too)? Are they not eating too much calcium and it the spots happen to be a coincidence because they are generally new layers?

AI says a laying chicken should be eating 4-5g a day of calcium, but mine are, if my calculations are correct, eating way more than that. I notice the oldest ones eating the most calcium, but even the Ameraucanas, who are nowhere close to lay, each eat probably 4g or more a day.

In conclusion, I might be obsessing over my fluffy girls a bit too much. Are my chickens pacing themselves, or do I have to pace for them? What should I do, or have they already figured it out?

I would say back off on the calcium. That would include eggshells. I think I lost one of my Sussex hens due to excess calcium. She ended up with a mass on her side (where all the organs are.