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[madforbuns]

My no-maned lionhead (possible mixed breed) doe will be 5 months old on the 1st of November. She is bigger than my double maned buck who is a year old. Would this be a good age to breed her for the first time? I'm guessing they are considered a small breed? Would she be considered small or medium from her pic?

also what could she be mixed with? She's a broken right? Lilac? What colours would I likely get with my VM buck (just a white nose. Has a black 'mask', mostly chocolate brown with gingery patches just above his leg mane where he's been growing in his winter coat)

 

[Bunnylady]

Your buck is a Siamese Sable; your doe looks to possibly be a broken Chinchilla. That's usually not a good color combination, because you can get some babies with really confusing colors out of it. On the other hand, not knowing what genes they might be hiding, you might have no trouble figuring the colors out. About the only thing I can say with certainty is you won't get Chestnuts, oranges or torts.

Your doe's breeding is something I'm even less sure about. Frankly, I wouldn't have even thought she had Lionhead in her if you hadn't said so. Lionheads are supposed to be less than 3 3/4 lbs, compact. upright, with a bold, slightly rounded head and a well-filled muzzle. Your doe is long, has a long face; her type really doesn't say "Lionhead" at all.

 

[madforbuns]

Her mum kind of had lop ears and was DM, not lopped but not upright if you know what I mean. Her ears are a little floppy but clearly upright most of the time. Could this be where the body shape has changed? I know she's not ideal for breeding but I love her colouring and she has a great temperament. She will not be used to enhance the breed, the bunnies she hopefully produces will be pets and sold as such. I cannot vouch for her breeding other than what can be seen so will not market the kits as anything other than mixes. I had a chinchilla buck years ago and also I've had several other breeds. She is half of they're size, but you're right, she has a much different shape to my buck. She will be my practice breeder and will be bred as backup when I get a nice pure bred lionhead in case any problems arise with feeding etc.

Do you think 5 months is a good age for her?

 

[madforbuns]

Trying to find decent lionheads around here is infuriating. Just spoken to yet another guy selling lionheads. I asked what breeds the parents were as they looked similar in shape to my doe, the faces at least, he said the mum was a brown lop with a mane and the dad was black and white Dutch. So how can he call that lionhead? The babies didn't even look to have a mane at all, none of them! Another is trying to sell lionhead x mini lops as pure breeds. I need to pick another breed to work with as finding a nice pure breed round here is going to be near impossible!

 

[SternRose]

Trying to find decent lionheads around here is infuriating. Just spoken to yet another guy selling lionheads. I asked what breeds the parents were as they looked similar in shape to my doe, the faces at least, he said the mum was a brown lop with a mane and the dad was black and white Dutch. So how can he call that lionhead? The babies didn't even look to have a mane at all, none of them! Another is trying to sell lionhead x mini lops as pure breeds. I need to pick another breed to work with as finding a nice pure breed round here is going to be near impossible!

Going to shows and paying $50+ is the only way to get "nice" pure breeds. Some breeds are crossed to enhance the breed, like holland lops and a few others. Little saying I hear alot with rabbits( expesialy with Hollands) is "they breed tire or they don't breed true"
Breed a blue Dutch to a blue your getting Blues. If your blues are good quality, ur getting better quality then parents, they breed true.

With Hollands, amazing quality and amazing quality, you can get pet only quality kits, Holland Lops DON'T breed True. Lol,

But I'd go to shows and find the top trusted breeders. That all I can think of, hope this helped.

 

[Bunnylady]

Her mum kind of had lop ears and was DM, not lopped but not upright if you know what I mean. Her ears are a little floppy but clearly upright most of the time. Could this be where the body shape has changed? I know she's not ideal for breeding but I love her colouring and she has a great temperament. She will not be used to enhance the breed, the bunnies she hopefully produces will be pets and sold as such. I cannot vouch for her breeding other than what can be seen so will not market the kits as anything other than mixes. I had a chinchilla buck years ago and also I've had several other breeds. She is half of they're size, but you're right, she has a much different shape to my buck. She will be my practice breeder and will be bred as backup when I get a nice pure bred lionhead in case any problems arise with feeding etc.

Do you think 5 months is a good age for her?

Not to be quarrelsome, but a DM Lionhead does not produce maneless offspring. Even if crossed to a maneless rabbit, all of the offspring from a double-maned rabbit will have manes. The mane gene is dominant; if a rabbit has inherited it, the rabbit will have a mane. Since this rabbit is maneless, neither of her parents could have been DM.

I totally disagree with what SternRose said about Holland Lops. I have known some very successful breeders that have produced many grand champions year after year, how could they possibly do that if their good rabbits don't produce good rabbits at least some of the time?

The problem with getting good Lionheads is that everybody and their best friend has jumped onto the Lionhead bandwagon, most of them without the vaguest notion of what a Lionhead should be other than having some sort of mane. As long as it has a bit of longer hair around the head (or as in the case of your doe, was born to a rabbit that had that bit of longer hair), some people will call it a Lionhead. And as long as the cachet of the name will sell such animals to an unknowing public that is just nuts to get their hands on a "Lionhead," it will continue. Eventually, the breed's popularity will die down, and the quality of the ones that are getting produced will increase somewhat.

Your best bet is to educate yourself on what a Lionhead should look like. I agree that a show is a good place to find a good breeder, but you may find a better price at their home rather than at a show.

 

[kacklinkelly]

Well, if the 1st mating "took", today is day 10. I hope I don't bore everyone with my count down but I am very excited for our first batch of meat kits. I have been researching all kinds of things like building nest boxes, diet for pregnant does, potential complications, how to palpate a pregnant doe, embryo development. (I've been told I can be a bit obsessive when I'm interested in something) My largest challenge so far is my family believing that I will turn into a bunny hoarder instead of using the rabbits for their intended purpose. Time will tell. I'm going to practice palpation on my non pregnant doe for a few days before doing it to the hopefully pregnant one. We shall see….

 

[SternRose]

I said they don't always get the show quality, I know alot of breeders( Hollond lop breeders) who have told me this info.
They told me that even the top pairings almost 90% of the time produced pet qualitys.
I know a few who have the complete opposit out come 90% of the time show,
Hollands don't breed true, which is why I won't ever breed them.

 

[Bunnylady]

Yes, but with Dutch, 90% of the babies won't be show quality, too. Marked breeds are notorious for that - with Harlequins, you may have to breed several litters to get one good one.

 

[RedRidge]

Her mum kind of had lop ears and was DM, not lopped but not upright if you know what I mean. Her ears are a little floppy but clearly upright most of the time. Could this be where the body shape has changed? I know she's not ideal for breeding but I love her colouring and she has a great temperament. She will not be used to enhance the breed, the bunnies she hopefully produces will be pets and sold as such. I cannot vouch for her breeding other than what can be seen so will not market the kits as anything other than mixes. I had a chinchilla buck years ago and also I've had several other breeds. She is half of they're size, but you're right, she has a much different shape to my buck. She will be my practice breeder and will be bred as backup when I get a nice pure bred lionhead in case any problems arise with feeding etc.


Do you think 5 months is a good age for her?

Not to be quarrelsome, but a DM Lionhead does not produce maneless offspring. Even if crossed to a maneless rabbit, all of the offspring from a double-maned rabbit will have manes. The mane gene is dominant; if a rabbit has inherited it,  the rabbit will have a mane. Since this rabbit is maneless, neither of her parents could have been DM.

I totally disagree with what SternRose said about Holland Lops. I have known some very successful breeders that have produced many grand champions year after year, how could they possibly do that if their good rabbits don't produce good rabbits at least some of the time?

The problem with getting good Lionheads is that everybody and their best friend has jumped onto the Lionhead bandwagon, most of them without the vaguest notion of what a Lionhead should be other than having some sort of mane. As long as it has a bit of longer hair around the head (or as in the case of your doe, was born to a rabbit that had that bit of longer hair), some people will call it a Lionhead. And as long as the cachet of the name will sell such animals to an unknowing public that is just nuts to get their hands on a "Lionhead," it will continue. Eventually, the breed's popularity will die down, and the quality of the ones that are getting produced will increase somewhat.

Your best bet is to educate yourself on what a Lionhead should look like. I agree that a show is a good place to find a good breeder, but you may find a better price at their home rather than at a show.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Taking the time to build relationships is what will yield you the best genetics. We choose who we sell our best genetics to based on how sincere we feel they are about promoting and improving the breed
As with any decent breeding program in any breed (out any kind of livestock for that matter), the breeder is always striving to create offspring superior to the sire and dam. The ability is there IF you breed and cull properly. The biggest hurdle is convincing people to ONLY breed animals who are superior to their parents. Too many people sell their inferior animals and folks who purchase them have hopes of creating something great. "GOOD" breeders sell their best offspring as breeders. This is how some (very few actually) breeders develop an authentically good reputation. And why so few breeders have a good reputation. Learning to cull deep enough and being willing to share your best genetics are key to maintaining a good breeding program. If you aren't producing "some" offspring who are better than their parents, you need to seriously reevaluate your breeding practices. Normally the first step in this reevaluation process involves deeper culling. No, a grand champion will not always produce a gr ch (especially with how too many of those are achieved these days). But way too many breedings take place via the crap shoot method without a real plan.
This is a huge problem for all livestock breeding programs, not just rabbits.
AmChins are a great example. Because they are a rare breed I know a lot of folks who feel like they should sell their entire litters as breeding stock. On average only the top 20% of mine get sold for breeding. Yes, I likely get criticized for not "sharing" more AmChin genetics, but why would I want to perpetuate something of lesser quality just to create more.