What's Wrong with a Friendly Horse?

[Hound]

Quote:
Generally an overly friendly horse will kick or trample you quicker than one that wants to run away. Those will, well, just run away.

 

[Sir Birdaholic]

My 3 minis at home are spoiled rotten "pocket ponies'. The horses at work have to be hearded to the working pen & caught. They are cattle horses, & I want them to have their "spirit".

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

I used to have issues with the feed bucket thing, but worked through that one very well.

Is it possible to have a pocket pony without the issues? Or rather, is it possible to have a pocket pony that knows what's not acceptable?

 

[Hound]

I think so, but I don't like the term 'pocket pony' to begin with. To me it reads 'spoilt brat'. An easy-to-do horse doesn't have to be unfriendly. You can have a friendly horse that's comfortable with all of the usual handling (grooming, clipping, farrier, sprays, doctoring etc) without being ill mannered.

 

[debilorrah]

Quote:
I can tell you what is wrong with a friendly horse, especially when it is Duke a 900 lb horse that wants to play with you!!! He comes a charging with a great big smile on his face and wonders why I run.

So I run he thinks OH GOODY!!!! And comes at me more!!!! He has never knocked me down, and that is ONLY because I corner myself. Otherwise I am sure he would and think about it afterwards. Duke is NO pocket horse. Duchess is a pocket horse. She just wants to nuzzle me and shove me against the fence to show her love. Lucky her. She only weights 800 lbs.

 

[welsummerchicks]

To avoid having your horse chase you when he's loose, turn him when he comes at you, with a long whip. Although then, you may not be able to catch him when you want to. I carry a whip when I don't want the horse to come to me. When I want them to come, I put the whip down. They learn the difference, otherwise they don't know what the person wants.

What's wrong, ropo, is that every single person has a different definition of what is 'too much'. So we have plenty of confused, stressed horses when they are handled by different people.

Many people are talking about very, very small differences when it comes to actual practice, and all moderate, sensible, consistent approaches tend to turn out well behaved horses. The words they use are much more different than what they actually do. Until they run into a more difficult horse, most people can cope, regardless of exactly what they do.

SOME folks go to - well - extremes. The horse has to stay way away from them, walk in a very docile fashion 'over there', and never nose his handler, put his face near him, look at him, etc. A barn manager at one barn I was at, could 'see' a 'violation' in almost anything the horse did, and would go pounding on them at the drop of a hat. She once actually told me a horse 'looked at her wrong'. I said sotto voce, if they were alive, they'd be looking at her wrong.

Some of it isn't 'philosophy' or style, it only masquerades as that. Some people lack skill and have a short fuse, and can also very skillfully, represent their meltdowns as following some sort of training philosophy. They cause their own problems with the horse, then start whalin' on the horse when they lose their temper.

On the other hand, sport horse people overall - they tend to not be as fussy or picky about every little movement or facial expression the horse makes, and to 'go after the big stuff'.

But they also usually lead horses in a totally different way. The horse is supposed to march along energetically, right with his shoulder at the handler's shoulder, his whole head and neck out in front of the handler. When leading like that, the handler is very secure and he doesn't have to freak out at each little thing the horse does. With many horses, it gives them far less to act up about, because they are moving along so actively and busily.

Much of this roughly parallels the style of riding - a style of handling and a kind of - for lack of a better word - 'philosophy' about the horse's behavior and why he does what he does, goes along with the riding. And WHY we think a horse does something, influences a lot what we think is 'good or bad' in the horse's behavior, and what we punish or not and how. So while one trainer might say the horse has no idea what's expected of him, and that's why he is doing what he's doing, and go about correcting it in a logical way the horse can understand and learn from, if we think a horse is 'spoiled' or 'bratty' we may handle it in a very different way.

And while one style may tend to have more adamant handlers than another style, there's a HUGE variation, even within riding styles.

 

[The Lisser]

I'm going to post an answer here, even though I don't have a horse!

I work with a llama rescue organization that deals with a fair amount of "behaviorally-challenged" llamas, and it sounds like some of the behaviors are very similar to what you're describing with horses.

Like horses, llamas are herd animals. Although much smaller than horses (weight-wise, anyway - the largest llamas weigh between 400-500 lbs), llamas are "semi domesticated" meaning they have not been domesticated as long as horses. A wild llama will not get close to a human. They have many of the same behaviors - respecting another animals' space indicates respecting their standing in the herd - a subordinate llama will not get in the space of a dominant animal, but a dominant llama can enter a subordinate llama's space. A llama that is mad or not liking something will pin it's ears back. A llama that stares at you directly in the eyes with its ears back is challenging you.

With llamas, most of the problem comes from animals that are over-handled when they are babies (crias). We have a term for these animals, ABS - Aberrant Behavior Syndrome. In most species it is called imprinting - the animal imprints on humans and never develops a fear of them. The worst offenders are usually bottle-fed, usually males are worse, but females can be terribly dangerous as well. A bottle-fed llama is the most wonderful, adorable docile pet . . . until it reaches maturity. Even if it's gelded, which does help, it will treat humans like another llama, meaning that it wants to establish dominance in the herd. They do this by charging, chest-butting, stomping with the front feet, sometimes by biting. I don't think there are any cases of humans being killed in the U.S. but a llama can certainly send someone to the hospital. Usually these animals are more likely to go after smaller people (women), and most will launch their attack when the person's back is turned. These llamas only make up a small percentage of llamas. Fortunately MOST (but not all) llama and alpaca breeders are becoming more aware of this syndrome and take steps to prevent over-handling their crias.

Even if it's not bottle fed, a llama needs to know it's place with humans. Because many people who get llamas are new to owning livestock, they can have a hard time training the animals. As you know training a prey animal is different in many ways than training a predator (dog). So sometimes llamas never lose their fear of humans and sometimes they never know their place.

With my llamas, I don't allow them to enter my space unless I invite them. Llamas greet by smelling your nose - I permit this but I don't allow them to push on me, or rub their faces on me, unless I KNOW that particular animal will not try to go the "next step". Llamas that chew on shoes or clothes are trying to see if they can push it to the next step. Some reach a point and never go farther, but I've seen it escalate - quickly- to rearing, chest-butting, etc. You think some of those cozy little behaviors are cute until they are full-blown challenges.

I imagine some of it is also attitude - the animals know if you are afraid of them, and will be more likely to try to establish dominance. I take care of two imprinted white-tailed deer where I work (a science center) - I established dominance years ago and they don't even think about attacking me, but anytime one of my coworkers goes near the enclosure, or a new volunteer usually female - the deer go nuts.

So to make a long-story short, I agree with welsummerchicks that it depends on the animal. Some animals only do the nosing stuff, but some will keep pushing the envelop. I imagine that horses are like llamas - an older animal is probably much less like to try to keep pushing the behavior to next step, but a young animal that is reaching maturity is trying to establish it's place (much like humans). I think the animal can learn - okay the human allows me to rub my head on them, but if I try to bite I get reprimanded. Just like in children, you have to be consistent. If you allow biting one time but not another it's confusing.

Hope this helps!

 

[michickenwrangler]

I was going to comment, but everything I want to say has been said!

Sometimes horses are advertised as "pocket horses" which, again, is not a good thing.

 

[geebs]

No pocket pony if it is a Haflinger... big heavy feet.... LOL... They tend to challenge authority with their spatial issues...

 

[welsummerchicks]

I have some nuances to that, but I do basically the same thing and think basically the same way as she expressed.

But...with horses, there are a couple different things, as we ride them. And sometimes we ride out.

I think our major difference is(and maybe it's really more a difference of words than practice), I always want an animal to come up to me and I don't want to invite them. At all. People vary how they feel about this, I want mine to come up to me, and to always think of me as wanting them to come up. No, they don't get rewarded for tearing up and knocking me over, but fact is, they don't do that.

I feel they should come up to me immediately at any time. They all know their names, and I have them come up several times a day, but they get rewarded (a pat and nice talk) any time they come up.

If I take a fall out in open country, and accidentally while flailing around, give the 'arm wave' or whatever is the (pretty instinctive) signal to go away, I actually want my horses walk back up to me and stand there and STAY there. And they do.

I'm sure the day may come when one of them is scared out of their wits and takes off, but it hasn't happened yet. So why do they? Because they have this very ingrained idea that if they stand there quietly next to me, it's a - 'highly valued behavior' - at any time, no confusion, no circumstances, conditions, no 'if's'(simple horse brain, simple rules work best). If I can get back on, I will. If I can't, I might be able to lean on them and have them 'walk' me home. In any case, I don't want them running off. That consistent behavior (even with the allure of the barn and greener pastures nearby) saved my tail one day, and I like it.

There's an old story of a Russian prisoner of war who slipped away on a farm work horse, and rode the horse he** for leather all day, til it was lathered and exhausted. He figured he'd make for the Finnish border. He turned the horse loose, sure it would run home, and bedded down in some dry leaves. About half way through the night, the horse showed up and bedded down beside him. So the next day he got on again and rode the horse into the ground again. Same thing again at night. For several days, til he reached the border, the horse accompanied him.

Purely out of ingrained habit, from repetition day after day, as the driver was the one who fed each horse at night, and it might be out in a field, in the woods, or where ever they were working.

Of course there ARE other intepretations. Such as, the horse was hoping that when they got to the Finnish border, they'd let him in too!