When is it no longer a cross?

[3riverschick]

I'd be interested to see what some of the serious breeders say about this, also.

My guess is there's no set number of generations. Some traits are going to be harder to breed out than others, thus more generations. I'm thinking it's when your offspring birds breed true to the original breed standard, however long that may take.

I am pretty sure that the answer is, assuming one is line breeding and concentrating genetics steadily in one direction.. 8 generations.
Best,
Karen

 

[DCchicken]

As long as the outcrossing is disclosed during any sale of the offspring, I don't think there would be any harm. Probably best to call it a cross or a mix. The worst case scenario is that your birds would not look like the birds of other Cemani breeders that culled out non black attributes. A good example of this would be the Cotsworld Legbars. They were crossed to increase productivity But no Cream Legbar breeder would call them a Cream Legbar.

 

[Naamahbengals]

Yes, I've decided to order the pure black ones, instead of the ones with Minocra blood... The crosses would be useful to me but I don't want to go through having to explain why they have white lobes every time I want to sell. So pure Cemani it is.

 

[DCchicken]

I wish you good luck with your breeding program. Does anyone know APA guidelines for outcrossing and the crossing back?

 

[tadkerson]

There are no crossing guide lines in the standard ; only subjective and objective traits.

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

I do believe the original point of the cross was to improve laying yield; the ones with lighter lobes lay more eggs than the pure. They are being crossed back to Cemani to get rid of the lighter lobes, but in the meantime, this is the result.

Black head, combs, wattles etc is a trait associated with the birchen allele. I have observed this on some of the birchen birds I had in the past. The original cross was a spitzauben x rhodebar cross. If this associated trait ( acts like a recessive), is combined with melanotic, the birchen allele, fibromelanotic, and dermal melanin the birds should be all black.

To improve egg production, you would out cross to a superior egg producer.

Then start to cross the offspring to retain the egg production while selecting for the ayam cemani traits

continue crossing the next generation selecting for egg production and ayam cemani traits

back crossing to a ayam cemani will only decrease egg production

Tim

 

[DCchicken]

I should have been a little clearer on my question since it was not meant to be about Ayam Cemani. For example on the Cream Legbar, two of the breeds used to create the CL was the Aracuana and the Brown Leghorn. At this time, the breed is a standard (at least in the U.K.). So if someone were to breed a CL with a Brown Leghorn or an Aracuana, would that be considered crossing-out since the two breeds were originally used to create the CL?

 

[3riverschick]

I should have been a little clearer on my question since it was not meant to be about Ayam Cemani. For example on the Cream Legbar, two of the breeds used to create the CL was the Aracuana and the Brown Leghorn. At this time, the breed is a standard (at least in the U.K.). So if someone were to breed a CL with a Brown Leghorn or an Aracuana, would that be considered crossing-out since the two breeds were originally used to create the CL?

I think so. Since the Cream Legbar is currently a breed with a Standard.
Best,
Karen

 

[NYREDS]

I'd be interested to see what some of the serious breeders say about this, also.

My guess is there's no set number of generations. Some traits are going to be harder to breed out than others, thus more generations. I'm thinking it's when your offspring birds breed true to the original breed standard, however long that may take.

Good answer-sounds about right to me

 

[DCchicken]

These birds have 2 vents?

Where did I say they have 2 vents? They are chickens, not another species. So only one vent. I have updated the original statement to remove the typo so that no one is confused on the number of vents.