White Rock x Buff Orpington?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by soldieratheart, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. soldieratheart

    soldieratheart Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 7, 2009
    Coopertown, TN
    Hi all,

    I was wondering if it would be possible to create a Red Barred Rock, or conversely a Barred Buff Orpington?

    Since a White Rock is actually a Barred Rock with the Black Barring suppressed by two doses of recessive white ( I think), then White Rocks actually carry non-sex-linked Barring and that would, theoretically, express itself in offspring - right?

    So, on a eWh bird with solid color such as a BO, RIR, or even BOxRIR for a nice range of red shades.... would the barring appear from a White Rock parent, but in red form instead of black?

    And what difference would it make were the White Rock the sire, and conversely the dam? I am guessing that it would be better to have the White Rock as the mother for a more "controlled" dose of barring, and only one dose of recessive white, but maybe I am wrong? Or would it be easier to take a Barred Rock and cross with BO, RIR, or BOxRIR to turn the black into red?

    I have tried the chicken calculator but it is still too complicated for me, but maybe somebody here has heard of these combinations. I did not like the look of Barred Rock over Buff Orpington that is posted somewhere on BYc, as what I am looking for is a combination that is barred RED without black. Which is why I wonder if adding barring to the solid red or buff eWh birds, would be better than turning black into red.
     
  2. ve

    ve Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I think will be easier to use Partrige Rock with RIR,New Hampshire Red or Buff Orpington.To be red Partrige Rock only need Co(Columbian)gene.All other 3 breeds have it.
     
  3. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    Did you have any particular reason to want to use a white rock & Buff Orp?

    Barred RIR would probably be the easiest to make. I think the easiest way would be RIR male on Barred rock female to get sex linked offspring. Breed male offspring (one barring gene) to RIR females. Some of the offspring will be red barred. Select for colour breed red barred to red barred. Select males with two barring genes to be bred to barred females. These birds will be autosexing, basically what is known as a "rhodebar".
     
  4. soldieratheart

    soldieratheart Out Of The Brooder

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    Well, first as to the Partridge Rocks... they don't seem to be true Barred as they have the salmon breast and partridge coloring, so would they give relaible barring without introducing a whole bunch of other color or pattern genes? My end goal would be to have purely gold/ginger and white birds with barring. Seems like it would be hard to get a consistent pattern like that from a Partridge, but then again, I am not familiar with their genotype so I may be totally off on that.

    As for not using RIRs... well, I really prefer the Buff Orpingtons and would like to achieve an Orpington "look" and temperament, as the well as the pretty gold buff color. I have seen pictures of buff/gold and white birds and the combination looks really nice. But you can also have a nice RIR/BO cross that keeps all the Orpington traits, but with a slightly deeper cinnamon color - not a deep black-red, but a beautiful golden ginger. So that is really what I would want, and would only add RIR to deepen the Orpington. Since they are both eWh and patternless, I figured it would be a genetically "safe" way to get a good range of gold hues with a little more variety than from pure Buff Orpington, but while retaining their type and personalities.

    I was hoping that using White Rocks for the barring would be best, as the barring in Rocks is genetically coded for black but it is possible to change black into red, isn't it? And by using a bird without black in it, genetically, I wouldn't be adding any melanizing to smudge or blacken the Rock barring. Since White Rocks are recessive white twice - which is how they hide that barring gene - I thought that would be an advantage as they must have a simpler genotype without too many hidden thingummies in there, so that *should* help with getting consistent, pure results - woudn't it?

    So that is why I was looking for Buff Orpington x White Rock, not to mention that they are easy to find, easy keepers, and great dual-purpose birds. And the Buffs are sweet and friendly.

    But could you explain how/why I would get a sexlink out of that cross? Would the Rock bird need to be the hen? And what is the genotype difference between RIR and BO? I thought they were pretty much the same (talking plumage here!) except that RIR had Mh. Why are they used so much for crosses and sexlinks instead of Buff Orps? Waht are the differences there? And would the WR x BO get me gold with white barred chickens?

    Sorry to bombard you with questions... but I am really trying hard to understand the genetics and it is hard without asking these kinds of questions! I would love to come up with this kind of cross!
     
  5. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    And would the WR x BO get me gold with white barred chickens?

    That's a lot of questions. [​IMG]
    If the white rocks are like barred rocks with recessive white then they are just black based birds with recessive white.

    RIR X Buff orp do not really maintain Orp type, they are simply a first cross, also in some cases the colour can be considerably darker than cinnamon. Depends upon the RIR used. I used exhibition RIR for the first cross when starting to make red Orpintons. They were reasonably dark red & much narrower across the back, altogether smaller birds, also the yellow legs had to be bred out.

    Here is one of my buff cuckoo or buff barred orpingtons; I also have red barred.
    [​IMG]

    If you use the barred hen with a buff male you will get sex links from the barring. Also barred rocks carry silver (as will white rocks if they are barred with recessive white). This being a sex linked gene, if you use a barred male for the first cross then all of the female offspring will be silver & all offspring will be barred. The females will again be useless for the project & there will not be the advantage of being able to sex at hatch.

    It would not be until the second season that one would start to see buff barred birds; even so a few seasons of selection are required.​
     
  6. ve

    ve Chillin' With My Peeps

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    If you like barring use Delawere and Partrige Rock
     
  7. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    If you like barring use Delawere and Partrige Rock

    Why a partridge rock?​
     
  8. soldieratheart

    soldieratheart Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 7, 2009
    Coopertown, TN
    Wow Krys your barred Orp is beautiful! That's exactly what I was thinking of... is it still as friendly as a Buff? How did you get your cross (if it's not a trade secret [​IMG]) ?


    I just love the Orpington type and body and the Buff color (don't care for the blacks or whites so much). It would just be so neat to retain those characteristics while adding some pretty white patterns on that gold. White barring... white lacing... maybe even white mottling.... and if possible, it would be nice to get more gold/ginger/cinnamon shades as well for interest. That's what I though an RIR could bring thanks to Mh.

    And ve, I am really curious as to what you have gotten thanks to Prartidge Rocks? Is it hard to figure out what offspring will be since they are so many color/patterns genes, or do you get pretty consistent color results from using them is crosses? What does it look like?
     
  9. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    Wow Krys your barred Orp is beautiful! That's exactly what I was thinking of... is it still as friendly as a Buff? How did you get your cross (if it's not a trade secret ) ?

    They're not really crosses any more but can reasonably be considered to be buff cuckoo Orpingtons, because they have good Orpington type & breed true.

    I get asked how to make them very frequently. They're made in the way I related in an earlier post, but I didn't use a barred rock (I used one of those meat birds). [​IMG]
     
  10. soldieratheart

    soldieratheart Out Of The Brooder

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    Sep 7, 2009
    Coopertown, TN
    I see... but I am assuming you didn't use the X meat birds, did you? Was it a I or i+ with silver? How did you get the barring effect then?

    I have been scrolling through some of your threads/pictures and your birds are gorgeous, the only thing is, you are doing pretty much everything that I was thinking of with the Orpingtons. [​IMG] And you are obviously very good at it, and very experienced. I, on the other hand, have just started my chicken-keeping... (though learning as much as I can as fast as I can!). It's very inspiring to see the results you are getting with your flock, even if it does seem impossible for a newbie like me to ever achieve....


    Well, maybe I can still think of trying to get some of the same Orp patterns here in the US, at least. I still have a question though:

    Breed male offspring (one barring gene) to RIR females. Some of the offspring will be red barred. Select for colour breed red barred to red barred. Select males with two barring genes to be bred to barred females. These birds will be autosexing, basically what is known as a "rhodebar".

    How will they be auto-sexing? What will be the difference? Iam still a bit confused as to how you cross for sexed color, I understand the genetics in that the hen only has one copy of a sex gene, but I don't know how to predict what the chicks will look like or which will be what sex. Especially with a Barred gene, since it still expresses with only one copy. Or can the ones with very light barring be assumed to carry two copies of B and are thus male?​
     

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