Whole flock infected

[kyrose]

noelg,i am also going thru this.luckily ive only had 2 out of 46 showing signs.my birds are also pets so ive decided to just deal with it.from what ive read outside of byc,its almost impossible not to get this in the flock,so i deal and practice the best bio-security i can.good luck with your birds.i hope they get better soon.

 

[jim&julie]

With 50+ birds showing no symptoms here is a curve ball...We have been symptom free for 5 months after putting 80% down with the slightest of symptoms now out of the blue one or two birds this week and last week just fell over dead. Not one single symptom. What in the world does that???
I sold a trio to a couple who were her for an hour or more. Those birds had never had a symptom and would have been put down if any had been displayed. She was concerned as her flock had been struggling thru many symptoms but she was convinced her flock was now clean. Couldn't make her realize that her whole flock were probably carriers. 2 days later she calls and two of the 3 are sick. She had put them with her flock right away(a big no-no) and believes my birds made 1/2 her flock sick. I told her to quarenteen but to put the 2 of my 5 month old Wheaten Marans down and I would give her her money back. This becomes a very touchy subject.
I have no carriers as mine are put down imediatly. But put mine in a flock of carriers and voila who do you think gets sick. I am going to give a handout to any new buyer explaing the 0 tolarence proceedures I and all reputable hatcheries abide by. Also I believe the stress of moving especially the 3 hour drive these birds had in a cardboard box warrent a Tylan treatment before they leave and for 3 subsequent days that must be spent in Isolation In a well ventalated area.
If the state tests your chickens for MG or MS and they are posative they confiscate and put your flock down. There is no other way to stop the cycle. They call it the all in or all out method. Hatcheries are required by law to do that. Backyard flocks have replaced the hatcheries as the
problem and we all need to listen up before they start requiring licence and in home inspections.

 

[Noelg]

OK
so your telling me that if im trying to be responsible and have them tested, IF they come back with MG the state is gonna come and kill all my birds?

if i choose to let none of them leave alive, what the point of that? Then i buy more, raise more, and then some darn wild turkey comes thru my yard or one simple bio security failure and ive got it again?
It makes no sense to me to keep wiping out a egg flock for something they are exposed to eventually one way or the other no matter what...


if I where to loose my mind, and want to bring in more. I could quarintine those individuals and innoculate, right? after shots, they are immune? if so then eventually i will be clean and i dont have to cull all my birds now. Yes? No?

This seems to be quite a touchy subject, and i get why. But IF im a responsible owner(and i am) nothing will leave this place alive. untill I choose to do the all in, all out. Then i would let my coop sit empty for a winter, disinfect and dry in the spring and start all over again with hatchery birds. I am reading everyday trying to learn as fast as possible, but im not willing to just off my whole flock for something that im gonna get again anyways, eventually from the sounds of it.

Now the question still remains has to where it came from?, while it doesnt matter as far as what i have to do. Where do i report where this originated? is that particular farm or hatchery now responsible for all my losses? cant prove it.... so i loose all the way around. And what about all the other people that will continue to pay the price for their negligence? This place advertises and sells LOTS of day chicks here in michigan, Is the state gonna wanna know where i got mine from? are they gonna care? Cuz im not gonna protect the guys i got these from, they dont deserve it. I will rat them out immediately! Not to be nasty,but to protect other unexperieced owners like me.

I cant imagine having to tell my kids, oh hey! dad has to chop the heads off of every single one of your birds today, go say bye!


Im gonna call MSU right now and ask, what the policy is. Im also gonna call and try to get ahold of the local NPIP guy. Im sure there is some info to be gleaned there.

 

[ND]

jim&julie-- I wouldn't be so sure you have no carriers. Without testing each and every one, or culling ALL and doing taking the appropriate measures to allow the disease to die off in the environment... you absolutely cannot be sure. For instance, most of the CRD diseases take at LEAST 5 days as the shortest incubation period after exposure. I'm not familiar with one that would incubate and have a sick acting bird within 48 hours. If birds were sold that showed symptoms within 48 hours at the new place, I'd place bets on the birds being carriers AND the stress of the relocation causing them to 'relapse' and show symptoms. They simply did not have enough time to become infected, incubate and also show symptoms within 48 hours. That's not to say that the customers birds weren't also carriers of....something, too. The same thing, a different thing, whatever. But 2 days isn't enough time to incubate and show symptoms... for yours to be infected by hers or hers by yours. That's more like a time frame for a stress relapse in a carrier. Her flock, if carriers, could be showing symptoms very quickly within that time frame due to the stress of the new birds being added to the flock.

If they aren't carriers of the exact same virus...and strain of virus... she'll see an outbreak again of symptoms as the old birds and new birds infect each other with the different diseases.



Not all states/locations require automatic culling of flocks testing positive for CRD illnesses. Not even all states require hatcheries to TEST for CRD illnesses in the flocks they get their hatching eggs from. If they don't even require testing, they're not too concerned about culling positives...


I disagree that Tylan (or anything else) should be given to a bird going to a new home or being observed in quarantine. #1, it won't prevent disease transmission and won't have any impact on carrier status and #2- "preventative treatment' of a quarantine bird may mask mild symptoms that you WANT to see before infecting your entire flock. (and 3 days days isolation? Might as well just toss them in with the flock... a 3 day quarantine is at least 27 days too short...)

 

[jim&julie]

You go for it! Everyone needs to know what the ground rules are. The state told me(Florida) that this used to be a hatchery problem but they have all instituted the all in all out policy and they also vacinate for everything. Many of those vacines are not even available for the general public.There is a one time vacine for cocidia but we can't get it. Having your chickens tested in order to get your NIPI card is a start. I sent eggs to Purdue university. Something like $1.65 an egg. MG and MS would be present in the eggs. Mine all (8) one from each run came back clear, but that is for MG and MS only. I may send some more and have them tested for a wider range of diesese. It is so much per test.

 

[jim&julie]

And the main concern the state has is the MS and MG. These will triger a response from the state to cull your flock.

 

[Noelg]

OK
hold on a sec

I could send an egg to them? cuz that is cheaper then the swab test at MSU, ITs 18 for the MG test alone, and $41 for the Aerobic C and S,which would test for other bacteria and tell me which antibiotic to use.

Do you have the link for that? cuz ive got eggs on the counter that are still warm!

Im throwing out some excitment for the day!, since all of this has been such a downer. One of my young silkies started crowing today!

Im tickled for now, but wont be if its MG.... I so wanted to do the silkie thing and raise some chicks!

 

[Southernbelle]

jim&julie :

And the main concern the state has is the MS and MG. These will triger a response from the state to cull your flock.

I imagine that would vary state-to-state. That's not true in my state and I've never heard of a state doing a mandatory cull for MG.

It was my choice to cull my flock, the state vet just told me to close my flock, but I enjoy hatching and selling chicks and started birds, so I chose to cull and start over. I know the state would do a mandatory cull for Avian Influenza and a few other diseases, but I can't bring to mind which ones.​

 

[ND]

Noelg, it's not the policy of most areas to require a positive flock to be culled. Find out your state's regulations (particularly for backyard flocks, NOT commercial flocks) and go from there.


On the vaccinations. It is MY understanding that vaccinations for CRD illnesses do NOT prevent the infection/carrier status. They minimize the symptoms and minimize possible mortality rates, and with some of them, minimize the production loss of eggs that some of the illnesses cause (usually JUST during the active acute stage, but in terms of commercial birds, this is extremely costly) ... but do NOT prevent the disease. In other words, they do not "work" like we are accustomed to in human vaccinations. They do not make the birds immune to the illness or becoming carriers. Just like the Mareks vaccine... many believe this totally prevents the contraction of Mareks, but it does not. A vaccinated bird can still contract Mareks, it's just less severe, with a much lower mortality rate--hopefully-- if vaccinated.

Anyway, that's what I discovered when researching vaccinating for MG and other CRD illnesses. Read the studies and fine print... or even brochure print. Brochure print may not directly SAY as much, but look for "key words" like 'helps control', or 'managing' and prevention is discussed in terms of reducing egg loss AND severity of symptoms/mortality rate. NOT completely preventing them from contracting the disease(s) entirely, making them immune.

I could be wrong, entirely... perhaps there IS a vaccine that does totally make them immune... I couldn't find it... and I eventually threw my hands up and gave up on it, because just minimizing symptoms wasn't my goal with the vaccine...



jim&julie- MG and MS CAN be present in an egg of a carrier, but actually, egg transmission is *low* risk anyway and thought to be mostly a problem during a flare up or acute stage of illness, when more cells of the virus are being shed. Even during active infection, I think egg transmission rates were quoted to being as low as 3-5%. I would conclude that egg testing alone only sheds a light on if there is any egg transmission, but not much of a light, at all, on if any particular bird is an actual carrier of the disease. Additionally, there are several meds that, when given to carrier laying hens, report to totally prevent the transmission to a hatching egg if given in a certain period of time before the egg is laid. That might make a hatching egg safe, but because of that, I'd not trust egg testing to mean that a laying hen is 'clean'.

 

[Rozzie]

Quote:
Very good idea. However, even buying from the best known hatcheries is not a guarantee. Somewhere here this is a thread about a MAJOR outbreak that resulted from infected chicks that were shipped out by one of the best known hatcheries in the business...