why do there have to be so many different dog-training systems? (rant)

[welsummerchicks]

I think group classes are extremely valuable. The student gets to see what mistakes people make and how they affect the dog.

It's really like getting 10 or 12 sessions (or how many students/dogs there are in the class) out of one.

The student gets to see how the training 'volume' is turned up or down for a very wide variety of dogs, without really having to deviate from the basic method at all.

He gets to see what to do if the command isn't understood, if it's ignored, etc.

His dog may not react the way another student's dog does in the classroom, but in another situation, when his dog reacts differently, he'll know what to do.

The student learns in a group, sooooooo much more quickly than if he's taught on his own. Instead of one example each time, he sees 12 or 15.

The trick is, that the instructor is teaching something that works.

That always IS the trick, LOL.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
No no no. I see I explained that badly.

I certainly understand why at the more-specialized levels there are many complicated training systems.

What I think is stupid and pointless is the number of them being used by people/places that mainly-or-entirely service the "pet dog market", the people who are only ever GOING to take one or two classes and all they want is a dog who will not knock down Aunt Mabel and not tow them in front of an oncoming tractor-trailer and maybe sit down instead of eating the pizza off the table.

Even the people I am currently taking lessons from, who *do* do agility and have a reasonable number of students and host trials and all that, I get the impression that most of their beginner-obedience dogs are the "just pet" people.

Just clarifying,

Pat

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

No question group classes are valuable. But I have taught classes, co-taught classes, watched classes, and attended classes. I was just saying, they could be much more helpful than they are to the average student. Another thing with classes and being flexible with styles/rewards/commands is the more specialized the training the less flexible the instructor becomes and its natrually going to be that way. A CGC prep class isn't going to be any where near as inflexible as, say, a tracking class. Thats the point I was trying to make.

 

[patandchickens]

Thanks guys

I really *wasn't* asking, just venting, as it is pretty much the same in the horse world (although, may I say, rather less so, and instructors *expect* new students to come with "baggage" as opposed to being shocked, shocked!, that anyone could possibly be doing anything differently).

I am just feeling really, really frustrated is all. I will get over it of course

I truly think that with this particular dog, living in our particular situation (i.e. rural and without lots of dog-friendly places/events around) and with Russell being unregistered, classes are probably our best shot at easing into the general dogs-and-people-and-strange-place atmosphere he would need to deal with for any sort of competition. Also I am realistically not likely to build ALL the agility equipment to have in my backyard, and having zero experience would really prefer to have advice/supervision when introducing things like the teeter.

I did get a reply to my email from the instructors, who sort of said "whatever, we won't *make* you do it our way even though we think you should", and you know how you pften can't tell peoples' ACTUAL meaning or reaction from email, so I will jsut have to see what happens next week in class. <shrug> But dammit this time I am going to do the exercises in MY way and focus on the DOG this time not on trying to do every new thing I'm told

One person used those velcro treat pouches and stuffed it full of bedding from their hamster's cage. lol The dog was not easily motivated by food or toys but lived for fuzzy hamster smelling objects.

ROTFLMAO

I would *never* go to a place that trained using clickers - I don't have the time for that. I need hardcore yes no training so that my dog learned -the first time-. Clickers always seem to delay learning to me... but... I do snap when I give a command (natural for me, I never intended on it) so it might be related.

It's funny btw how differently people see things, b/c the thing I really *love* about clicker training is how *quickly* it works, on this particular dog anyhow. Simple things he tends to learn in literally one or two attempts, and more-complex things are easy to quickly create by shaping and then of course put a name to once you've got the final version. I have no direct experience with other dogs of course (tho I have seen enough to think it works this well for all if properly used). But for Russell at least, it is da bomb.

Pat​

 

[Kansaseq]

It's your dog. If your dog already does it well one way, why change it because a new instructor says it's *better*. If they are opposed to doing what's best for *your* dog,because it makes it easier for them (or makes them look good) I'd go someplace else. If they are so rigid they can't accept that another method works better for some dogs, they aren't all that great of a trainer. Just my humble opinion.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I understand you Jamie, but I'm not sure that's really what Pat's talking about.

I thought I kind of understood, but her last post has me confused, and I can guarantee that today, that's not at all her fault, LOL. I'm really sick, full to the gills of medicine, and have what appears to be a double rectified combo of swine-sheep-deer-bird-elephant-wolverine flu.

My own feelings (as impaired as they are right now...LOL) are -

1.) I thought pat's initial point was surprise that there were a jillian different training systems being touted out there, and yet people are generally just choosing the closest most convenient location rather than selecting a system

1a.) I'm not sure if she feels there is value added by having these many different systems around or not.

1b.) I believe that a lot of the 'diverse' training methods out there are marketing noise, nothing more, nothing less. Again, I promised myself I'd never, ever say this, and maybe it's just the z-pak talkin', but 'nowadays' I see these systems springing up like toads after a rain and a lot fo them don't seem to have any value to add

2.) when people get presented with many different approaches to dog training, they get confused. They start changing it up too much and getting inconsistent, and they frustrate themselves and the dog and cause delays and inconsistent, erratic responses. They waste a lot of effort and get poorer results.

3.) even for specialized training, there is not really that many different approaches that are actually necessary, even given the different tasks and types of dogs, etc.

I like to do what works. I like to adjust the 'training volume' to the temperament and feelings of the dog. I like a system that is based on how dogs think and behave, not on good-selling and appealing anthropomorphism of how they think. If holding a treat over Fido's head doesn't get the idea across that he's supposed to sit at that point, I'm going to try something else.

(ducks and runs for more of that big pharm that has been keeping me alive for 5 the last days)

 

[2cool4you]

I'd say drop that trainer. To be honest from all of the trainers I've used they've always said "use the motion your dog knows". Because really there's no reason to confuse your dog. If he knows the command using your cue then go for it. And if the trainer insists on using ONLY their cues I'd just say sorry my dog doesn't flow that way. I know my Remy dog would be seriously messed up after 7 months of us working one way and then now I have to switch it up because a trainer thinks it's the only way. If your dog can see and understand I don't see the problem.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I have a dog that is the hardest working, most brilliant, tuned in dog, perceptive, quick on the draw dog that I've ever worked with in my entire life.

He is phenomenal. He is just unbelievable. His retention is so incredible that you can walk away from something for months(like I had to when I was laid up) and you go back and it is all there. Every bit of it. Perfect.

And yet, when it came to going out in front of me and doing a spin, he was as dumb as a box of hammers.

So what do I do. Go back to a more basic step, repeat, build the concept - have some patience. Don't change up everything. Have some faith in the dog and yourself. Go back to a more basic step, smile and relax.

"I would not work with anyone that used clickers, <something to the effect that I don't have time>"

Oh ho ho ho ho ho I said that for a while, then I went to someone who actually understood how clickers worked and was effective with them. I still don't see them as a magic cure, but sometimes I do really think it helps the person to understand training, even if in a little bit of a mechanical way.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Maybe (I'm sorry you're not feeling well again) but of course *I* am not always clear on what I mean *either* LOL so it is probably NOT just you

1.) I thought pat's initial point was surprise that there were a jillian different training systems being touted out there, and yet people are generally just choosing the closest most convenient location rather than selecting a system
1a.) I'm not sure if she feels there is value added by having these many different systems around or not.

I am sure that, as in horses, some activities are best done using some methods and other activities are best done using other methods. Relying heavily on leg aids would not really get ya too far in a horse racing, for instance. Also even within a type of activity, there is often more than one way of skinning a cat, that can work equally well at least in the hands of someone who happens to naturally "do well with" that particular method. So I would not *expect* a single Grand Unified Theory Of Doing Things.

My issue isn't really with training methods per se, despite what I wrote as the thread title

, I guess it's more with the multiplicity of fairly-rigid fairly-complicated different systems *at the entry level*.

The only horse analog I can think of is canter departs, where a lot of different lesson barns (especially if you look across different disciplines) use really way-different cues (I will not call them all "aids").

But for, say, turning the horse, gee, basically you are either teaching the students to pull the inside rein, move both hands over to neck-rein, or concentrate a little more weight on the inside. There are not fifty different ways of doing it.

Well actually my REAL issue isn't even that, so much as just a heartfelt personal AAAAUURRRRRGH

2.) when people get presented with many different approaches to dog training, they get confused. They start changing it up too much and getting inconsistent, and they frustrate themselves and the dog and cause delays and inconsistent, erratic responses. They waste a lot of effort and get poorer results.

Like that. THAT is my point, yes, exactly

And I do NOT want to get sucked down that road.

Go take some more pills and eat some chocolate or something and I hope you feel better in the morning,

Pat​

 

[patandchickens]

Addendum... it occurs to me that part of my problem is probably that my next-to-last experience with *horse* clinicians (what, maybe 15 years ago) was really really really bad and I am probably being influenced by it still. I had just moved to the area in question, and there was a monthly clinician who most of the (small, podunk) local dressage community just thought walked on water, so I audited one month's clinic and then signed up for a slot.

I should have KNOWN what would happen, the clinician was a Bettina Drummond student and my background was, uh, more conventional north american. But, she just kept shouting and shouting louder and louder at me to do some darn thing I don't even remember what, stop moving my seat with the horse at the walk I think?, and I just could not figure out WHAT on earth she wanted me to do (like, HOW to do it). She wouldn't or couldn't give me any assistance on how, just kept going on and on about how I had to do it now, why was I not doing it, look if you're not going to do it then just stop and stand there until you are willing to do it, etcetera, getting madder and madder. Not only did I find it upsetting and confidence-denting (and a waste of $80 that at the time I really did not have) but several years later I was still getting some really nasty comments from people, including barn owner, about "thinking I was so great I didn't have to even try to do what <goddess clinician> said".

So I am maybe a bit overly sensitive about it (although the actual problem in the dressage clinic wasn't not WANTING to try, lord knows, it was not having any idea whatsoever how to achieve whatever-the-hell it was she meant me to do) and overcompensating somewhat by trying too hard to follow these instructors even when common sense would say to do things the way I'm used to.

I'm just trying to do the right thing, you know? And it's not always clear.

Pat