Why I'm Against Organic (read all the way through before you flame)

[Mac in Wisco]

Greathorse posted the link to the USDA website that explains the National Organic Program in laymens' terms.

If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty of it, the actual federal regulations, it is in Title 7 of the Code of Federal Regulations:

http://tinyurl.com/22nf673

 

[BrewedInNh]

Quote:
Not even in school, just interested in this kind of stuff, I'm actually kind of offended that you would say that, I have a genuine interest in this area and my goal in life is to one day own/operate a diversified sustainable farm. If i was trying to write an assignment i really wouldn't need the help of the internet.

Even if it were a means of collecting opinions--"ammo and fodder"--there is no reason that that is a bad thing.

Exactly right Sonoran, and it wasn't meant as a bad thing. I was just giving 95yj more credit for being clever than was due I guess.

 

[BarkerChickens]

95yj, I did not read the 10 pages of posts before me, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you. We grow organic at home, but buying organic nowadays doesn't necessarily mean it is actually organic (or what I would consider organic). Additionally, what is the point of buying organic when it has to be shipped several thousand miles? DH and I try to buy local (farmer's market, etc) when possible. That is more environmentally friendly, supports the local economy and, frankly, just plain neighborly!

 

[greathorse]

LARGE TRUCK Large truck Car
Capacity/Doz 20000 80
Miles traveled 1000 10
Fuel consumed/gal 125 0.5
Fuel per doz/gal 0.00625 0.00625

I dont know how to paste a spread sheet so you may need to use your imagination a bit. I have a lot of respect for local purchasing, but it can seldom be justified via fuel miles. I will also qualify this by saying there are enough variables that one may poke some holes but if you look at this little scenario, it seems to me a large truck could haul about twenty thousand dozen eggs to market and if his truck got about 8 miles per gallon he would burn 125 gallons of fuel, or .00625 gallons per dozen. A local backyard producer that traveled ten miles to market with a twenty mile per gallon vehicle would need to bring 80 dozen eggs to town and would need to have a flock of about 400 hens.

Quick dirty not very well thought out math, but food for thought for the locavore

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Quote:
I don't currently have anything to sell, but when I did, I multi-tasked. We only went to town one day a week, or one day a month, for goods and supplies. We made our order drop offs on that same day, or arranged all of our other errands around our market schedule. Most other small producers I know do the same. In fact, I don't know anyone that travels more than a couple of miles JUST for order delivery, so effectively, since the fuel would be burned for other purposes anyway, the goods from these small producers burns ZERO fuel miles.

There goes that theory!

But in all honesty, my interest in eating local goes far beyond the carbon footprint. It's a cultural thing, and a food security thing.

 

[greathorse]

Quote:
I don't currently have anything to sell, but when I did, I multi-tasked. We only went to town one day a week, or one day a month, for goods and supplies. We made our order drop offs on that same day, or arranged all of our other errands around our market schedule. Most other small producers I know do the same. In fact, I don't know anyone that travels more than a couple of miles JUST for order delivery, so effectively, since the fuel would be burned for other purposes anyway, the goods from these small producers burns ZERO fuel miles.

There goes that theory!

But in all honesty, my interest in eating local goes far beyond the carbon footprint. It's a cultural thing, and a food security thing.

I love the idea (as I indicated) of buying local for the exact reasons you just mentioned. I just dont think the carbon footprint is the best or even a very good reason. It is too bad that we send trucks many miles with product, but the long and short of it is that local can also burn a lot of fuel if not done thoughtfully, that is my point.

And frankly I know a number of folks that make a 50 mile trek to Denver farmers market with a wheezy ole pick up truck with a few eggs, some veggies and what not and folks are patting themselves on the back for saving fuel, it is not a given

 

[Blackbird]

Many of you are right. The term 'organic' has such a vast and wide coverage that it is often hard to believe and understand what it means.
Personally, I don't care what you call it. As close to nature as possible without as many man-made interferences as possible. Just like it has been done for centuries before current age. Large societies have thrived without today's bells and ornaments and society induced norms and standards. But others have failed as well. Either way, there are SO MANY alternatives to typical commercial and 'big corp' farm methods.

Can you imagine that if a majority in the US that had the space to plant a garden, did. How much less they would waste, how much money they would save, how much healthier they would be and how much less they would rely on large corporations for their food? That would definitely be amazing.

What is important now is not necessarily what we believe in but what we are doing on our part for our families.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I think it would actually be very difficult to calculate out how much fuel is used in large distant vs small local production. I think that it could go either way depending on how the person chose to calculate it, and the method of calculating could generate a lot of debate.

I don't believe the above formula is complete. I also don't believe the decision of long distance vs local is that clear.

If things are done in huge volume, it is hard to justify local production if you only look at amount of carbon per unit of food based on miles and gasoline alone for that last step of the distribution process.

If you look at a food network that is solely local production, vs mostly very distant, look at the whole process of getting the egg to the consumer.

Even....eggs are probably something of an unusual food product as I think actually, a lot of them are produced in the USA. But I think many commercial eggs are covering surprising distances.

The eggs could even be produced in one country(in some cases, perhaps not USA, but in many other countries), moved to a distribution center in another, and then moved 3-4 times to the final step at the local market, over long distance in refridgerated cars. The supply chain probably involves a number of different businesses, all who have employees and requires buildings, commuting miles for each, etc. They may require some inspection; then the inspector's travel to the distribution center is figured in, all the driving of all the employees to each step of the distribution chain, the power required to maintain each distribution center building, including the electric lifter used to move the eggs into the display shelf at the mega-supermarket, which is probably charged with electricity made at a power plant that burns low grade coal, and even, a percentage of what is required to power the mega-supermarket. You would even need to figure in the road maintenance that is involved when heavy trucks use the road long distance, vs lighter consumer vehicles traveling locally. Long distance trucking puts more strain on bridges and all infrastructure, even including law enforcement(accidents, enforcement of trucking regulations, etc).

Too, most road building materials are petroleum products that have a 'footprint' themselves bigger than Sasquatch.

THEN add in the consumer driving to the store and back!!

The entire supply chain of non local foods is, well, a humongous network of businesses, employees, buildings, trucks, roads and facilities. It is huge.

Even at that, I seriously wonder if people would ever give up all the luxury items they've grown used to, that are a part of the non-local food supply chain. Fifty years ago, the food market was very, very different. I'm not sure it was entirely local, even then, but the number of non local products and the amount of variety really has changed a great deal.

For better or worse? If you calculate the non local food supply chain based on gas per unit of food for that final step of distribution, it might seem better or equal. If you dig into more of the true costs, it is shockingly expensive for the environment.

 

[95yj]

Mac In Abilene: thanks for the site, gonna book mark it and explore it when i'm not trying to get to work.
Fuel consumption can be another fun debate, its not only the tractor trailors that are used to haul the food across states, it could also be argued that industrial farming uses much larger amounts of petroleum, for their acre wide tractors, petroleum based chemicals and fertilizers (not necessarily used as much in organic farming, but still possibly present) and the huge processing plants that are chewing up electricity. The giant trucks running back and forth across the country are also beating up our roads, which will then be repaved with: you guessed it, oil! So maybe the trucks alone are not using any more gas, but when you consider the system at large maybe it is. Welsummerchicks raised an interesting point, in America we are used to cheap food, the percentage of our income that is spent on food is much much lower than almost all other countries, even countries in which the average income is much lower than ours. However when you add in the environmental damage, the healthcare costs and all the unspoken for factors, that $0.50 twinky is suddenly $3.00. In America many peoples idea of cooking is throwing something in the microwave, if i handed them the raw ingredients for a dinner most people in my town wouldn't know what to do with them, if anything is going to change people have to learn how to cook and accept that good food may cost a little more.

 

[OrpingtonManor]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning with great interest, but haven't posted. I'm not a farmer. I'm not even a hobby farmer. I can't grow anything in my backyard because of a massive deer population. I have my chickens, but otherwise have to make decisions about where I buy things. I choose to buy certified organic at my local farmer's market. I walk to it. I bring my own bags. (Yes, I will pay $3.50 for a dozen eggs. They are $4 here. In some local cities, they are as high as $7-8 per dozen. People do buy them.)

It may be a valid argument to say that what we do has no effect....carbon footprint.... sustainability.... blahblahblah. But, I think, too often, we latch onto these arguments one way or the other because it allows us to do NOTHING. I have had many discussions with people who say terrible things about Certified Organic because it has flaws. They don't know what these flaws are, having never checked into what it means, but since someone once told them that it really doesn't mean organic (I mean, how could it? The Government is involved.) they go to the grocery store and fill their cart with the cheapest things. And, probably, in a few days or a week, they clean out the spoiled things in the fridge, and do it all over again. This is what gets me. We all buy enough to throw things out. Maybe we compost our spoiled veggies to make ourselves feel better. I certainly do. The point is, we buy more than we need. We see things that look beautiful, and we buy. If we had a better sense of how much is enough, we would buy less, and be able to afford the organic (read: expensive) food stuffs. But that would require change. We hate change. We want our cheap stuff. And, we want a lot of it. I think we really can afford to do this better. We simply don't want to.