Why is fermented feed getting moldy?

[LindaB220]

I have, and yet found a good study that has a positive out come at the end.
The studies I have found show that the condition of the fowl and some production is lost when feeding a fermented feed.

Also most of the weight that a bird gains wile on a fermented feed is just water weight any animal when feed a high moisture feed will gain water weight, its seen some in sheep and cattle show.

Yes Google is a wonderful tool but anybody can post a web-page or have a website, in short there are only a hand full of sites that are worth reading when it come to poultry nutrition.

Chris, I'd really like to read that site if your don't mind. You know, I value your information, and am always learning. It seems to me that by fermenting the feed the chickens just don't drink as much because they get it in the feed. By the way, I'm still soaking my oats for 3 days before putting into the fermenting feed mix and it seems to work really great.
Folks, Chris helped me out when I bought a 50# bag of oats. My birds would not eat it dry or fermented. He showed me to soak for up to 5 days with a little apple cider vinegar added. By keeping it covered in water constantly, it really reeks so I made the decision not to put it in the storeroom again.

 

[LindaB220]

You must have read only the words you were interested in reading ..... I found nothing positive about that article, when it comes to taking care of producing, egg laying chickens.... I call that, "Selective Interpretation" .....

To me, feeding chickens fermented feed would be like me changing my diet to Enfamil or Ensure....

Egg production was delayed, and reduced output was noted... Plumage was sacrificed.... And it also suggested to "adapt" or "train" the birds, to this type of feed, at an early age... ..... It was concluded that fermented wet feed offers potential benefits for health and nutrition, but may become suitable for layers only after the practical problems related to this feeding form have been overcome. However, an early adaptation of the birds during the rearing period seems to be necessary.....

Maybe I was selective but I did get positive outcome out of the article:

Fermented feed for laying hens: effects on egg production, egg quality, plumage condition and composition and activity of the intestinal microflora.

Authors

Engberg RM, et al. Show all
Journal

Br Poult Sci. 2009 Mar;50(2):228-39. doi: 10.1080/00071660902736722.
Affiliation
Abstract

1. An experiment with a total of 480 hens (Babcock) was carried out from 16 to 38 weeks of age to evaluate the suitability of wet fermented feed (feed water ratio, 1:1.2-1:1.4) for layers, taking aspects of nutrition and gastrointestinal health into consideration. The production performance, egg shell quality, plumage condition, litter dry matter (DM) content, as well as the composition and activity of the intestinal microbial flora were analysed. 2. Fermented feed was characterised by a high concentration of lactic acid (160-250 mmol/kg feed) and a moderate level of acetic acid (20-30 mmol/kg feed), high numbers of lactic acid bacteria (log 9-10 CFU/g feed) and a pH of approximately 4.5. Feed fermentation reduced the concentration of dietary sugar from 32.1 to 7.3 g/kg DM and the phytate bound phosphorus from 2.7 to 1.9 g/kg DM. 3. Fermented feed seemed to loose attractiveness for the birds quite rapidly, resulting in a more aggressive behaviour and a poorer plumage condition than in birds given dry feed. The use of fermented feed reduced the litter DM content. 4. During the experimental period, the body weight gain of hens receiving fermented feed was 80 g higher than of hens fed the dry mash. Presumably because of an extended adaptation time to the feed, the onset of lay occurred later when hens were fed on fermented feed, resulting in non-significantly reduced total egg production (75 vs. 82%). 5. There was no significant difference between groups with respect to the total egg mass production (g/d/hen, 42 and 45 for fermented feed and dry mash, respectively). Throughout the experimental period, the feed DM intake of hens fed with fermented feed was lower than that of hens receiving the dry mash (110 vs. 125 g). From week 26 to 37, fermented feed improved the feed conversion as compared with the dry mash (g feed DM/g egg mass, 2.28 vs. 2.53). 6. The use of fermented feed increased egg weight in the period from 34 to 37 weeks (61.4 vs. 60.0) and increased shell weight (g/100 g egg weight, 10.2 vs. 9.9) and shell stiffness (N/mm, 161 vs. 150) of eggs collected at 37 weeks. 7. The feeding of fermented feed increased intestinal health by acidification of the upper digestive tract, forming a natural barrier towards infection with acid sensitive pathogens, e.g. E. coli, Salmonella and Campylobacter. 8. It was concluded that fermented wet feed offers potential benefits for health and nutrition, but may become suitable for layers only after the practical problems related to this feeding form have been overcome. However, an early adaptation of the birds during the rearing period seems to be necessary.
PMID

19373724 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I say start them young at day 1 and get them accustomed to it . Healthier happier birds.

 

[LindaB220]

I would call it selective reading as well if you couldn't find anything good in that study, " Throughout the experimental period, the feed DM intake of hens fed with fermented feed was lower than that of hens receiving the dry mash (110 vs. 125 g). From week 26 to 37, fermented feed improved the feed conversion as compared with the dry mash (g feed DM/g egg mass, 2.28 vs. 2.53). 6. The use of fermented feed increased egg weight in the period from 34 to 37 weeks (61.4 vs. 60.0) and increased shell weight (g/100 g egg weight, 10.2 vs. 9.9) and shell stiffness (N/mm, 161 vs. 150) of eggs collected at 37 weeks. 7. The feeding of fermented feed increased intestinal health by acidification of the upper digestive tract, forming a natural barrier towards infection with acid sensitive pathogens, e.g. E. coli, Salmonella and Campylobacter."

So they're eating less food (good on the pocketbook), the quality of the egg shell is better (no explanation needed), and they have less chance of getting sick or giving us salmonella? That sounds pretty good to me. Linda, you could chime in with your experiences, and I would LOVE to hear others' as well, but my chickens have loved the feed. Haven't lost interest in it and started fighting, which is why the article said there was plumage quality loss. My chickens still love it, I didn't have to train them to love it x and they're all beautiful, no plumage quality loss. My chickens started laying two days after their 24th week which is pretty right on schedule.....no egg production delays.....in fact...is there anyone on here with bad things to say about it.....besides people who haven't tried it? Since my chickens can actually absorb more nutrients that way, plus they love it, plus they're quite healthy....I'm sticking to our fermented feed!

And Linda, glad I could help!

I wish I'd seen your post before I did mine. Yours is so much better. I have been feeding my birds since day one. Other than 2 predator kills I've not lost a one. Seriously, not a one. My first batch of birds were hatchery and 3 died the 1st 3 days. My birds swarm me when I feed. Love it and are healthy and happy. Started laying at about 22 weeks. Golden Comets. The delawares and white rocks are slower because of the breed. But they are so lively and interested in life and I'll not feed them anything else. I do throw out the dry during one meal sometimes if I'm in a hurry.

 

[theophila]

A wild chicken is very different from a backyard or commercial chicken. And comparing battery hens with free-ranging backyard chickens is also unfair. As with everything, returning to "natural" has to be eased in if an animal is used to very little exercise, eating mostly pre-processed commercial feed, etc.

Just like a human being transitioning from frozen dinners and fast food to whole, unprocessed foods. You might be gassy for a bit!

Your body wouldn't be used to having to work to digest its food. But then you can have yoghurt and other (hey! fermented!) foods with live cultures to help build up healthy gut flora. Or like transitioning dogs from kibble to raw meat - and, of course, the quality of the food is important too.

Fermenting is just one way to help them better absorb nutrients that their systems might not as easily break down and help them out when they're not getting a full balanced diet from eating the insects, mangoes, the fruit of oil palms, small snakes, rats, and the other things jungle fowl would have eaten. I have noticed that my girls don't poop out undigested whole grains any more since I've started fermenting their feed.

A friend who grew up on a family farm in rural France explained to me that chickens ate the insects and green out of horse and cow manure, which is fermented from their digestion, and this led to better absorption and a healthy gut. Might be one explanation.

 

[Chris09]

A wild chicken is very different from a backyard or commercial chicken. And comparing battery hens with free-ranging backyard chickens is also unfair. As with everything, returning to "natural" has to be eased in if an animal is used to very little exercise, eating mostly pre-processed commercial feed, etc.

There is no such thing as a "wild chicken", man created chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus) by crossing types of Jungle Fowl and selecting offspring for the traits that we were looking for and in doing so created a subspecies that is very different from the original parent species.
The Jungle Fowl's diet consisted mostly of seeds, grains, meats and on occasion fruits/vegetables. These bird very seldom at vegetation like grasses and never at a "fermented" feed. Todays chickens need a fortified diet that meets the dietary needs for producing a bigger body, producing more eggs, etc..

 

[theophila]

There is no such thing as a "wild chicken", man created chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus) by crossing types of Jungle Fowl and selecting offspring for the traits that we were looking for and in doing so created a subspecies that is very different from the original parent species.
The Jungle Fowl's diet consisted mostly of seeds, grains, meats and on occasion fruits/vegetables. These bird very seldom at vegetation like grasses and never at a "fermented" feed. Todays chickens need a fortified diet that meets the dietary needs for producing a bigger body, producing more eggs, etc..

Pssst. I said that. Y'know, in that paragraph referring to the jungle fowl's diet. Also, we call them chicken. Okay, we call them gai in Thai. Which means chicken. There's a place in Chiang Mai I loved (ลาบไก่บ้านโฮ่ง) that specialised in real northern food, and they served up some tasty "wild chicken."

 

[Chris09]

Pssst. I said that. Y'know, in that paragraph referring to the jungle fowl's diet. Also, we call them chicken. Okay, we call them gai in Thai. Which means chicken. There's a place in Chiang Mai I loved (ลาบไก่บ้านโฮ่ง) that specialised in real northern food, and they served up some tasty "wild chicken."

I was quoting this post;

Quote:
In this post there is no reference to a jungle fowl diet.

 

[theophila]

I was quoting this post;


In this post there is no reference to a jungle fowl diet.

3rd paragraph down in the post you quoted.

 

[Chris09]

3rd paragraph down in the post you quoted.

That's not really talking about there diet, you gave a list of things that may have made up 25% of there diet. (most of the 25% being animal matter (meat)

Seeds and Grains made up the vast amount of there diet and I don't believe you said a thing about them, followed by small vertebrate, invertebrate and carrion. Fruits, vegetable and vegetation made up very little of there diet.

Also in this paragraph it sounds like your comparing a chickens dietary need to a jungle fowl.

Quote:
Outside of the gamefowl breeds (American, Spanish, Filipino, Oriental etc.) most of todays chickens couldn't survive, produce, or reproduce on a diet much like the jungle fowl. Shoot, most of these birds (outside of the gamefowl breeds) could not survive in a true free range situation.


Chickens have been around for thousands of years and they didn't need man fermenting there feed for them and lived long healthy lives.


Also I have raised poultry for over 30+ years and have never seen undigested grains of any type in there stool.

 

[theophila]

That's not really talking about there diet, you gave a list of things that may have made up 25% of there diet. (most of the 25% being [COLOR=252525]animal matter (meat[/COLOR])

Seeds and Grains made up the vast amount of there diet and I don't believe you said a thing about them, followed by small [COLOR=252525]vertebrate, invertebrate and [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]carrion[/COLOR][COLOR=545454].[/COLOR][COLOR=252525] [/COLOR]Fruits, vegetable and vegetation made up very little of there diet. 

Uh, nope. Most of their diet is bugs, some fruit, vegetation, and they foraged for seeds, which aren't in as great abundance, and anything they can scratch from a jungle floor. Tell me where they're supposed to find GRAINS in a jungle? Cultivation of grain is a human practice, and they certainly don't like people.

You'll also notice I said you can't really compare wild chickens to battery hens to backyard chickens.