Why is there such a bias against hatcheries?

[Shan30]

And there is a fairly good reason for not having NPIP in my view. Their is a breeder in BC that tests his flocks but I think he is a bit nuts! I will shoot you a PM with the hatchery. 

Thank you!

 

[NYREDS]

And there is a fairly good reason for not having NPIP in my view. Their is a breeder in BC that tests his flocks but I think he is a bit nuts! I will shoot you a PM with the hatchery.

What would that good reason be? Prior to the NPIP Pullorum disease nearly decimated the poultry industry killing 80% of all birds hatched. The NPIP has virtually eliminated the disease. The testing has now been expanded to include several other diseases as well. What's the downside to that?

 

[call ducks]

 
And there is a fairly good reason for not having NPIP in my view. Their is a breeder in BC that tests his flocks but I think he is a bit nuts! I will shoot you a PM with the hatchery.

What would that good reason be? Prior to the NPIP Pullorum disease nearly decimated the poultry industry killing 80% of all birds hatched. The NPIP has virtually eliminated the disease. The testing has now been expanded to include several other diseases as well. What's the downside to that?

In Canada hatchery breeder flocks and hatcherys are inspected. Plus we any out breaks seem to only effect one province and the federal government must not see the need for one because if they did they would have put one in place already.... Where I live the province will vaccinate the bird for ILT and that is required to show. The cases of reported ILT in the three provinces that doe this are much lower than in provinces that don't

 

[chooks4life]

If there is a bias against hatchery birds expressed by some people on this site (myself included) the reasons are almost always stated in those posts mentioning the bias.

At the same time, most people state the qualifier that not all hatcheries are like this. Certainly there is not any bias on this site in general; I would estimate that at least half of all poultry keepers on this site do use, or have used, a hatchery. Not all are unhappy with their experiences.

Everyone has different standards though, and I know that the poultry some people are satisfied with I would personally cull and consider a riddance of future trouble. They don't look healthy in many cases, but to those who don't know better, they are fine; also, if they perform to the standards expected by their owners, then their requirements have been met and therefore they have got their money's worth. Like you, many just want an egg a day or similar high production.

It's very variable, what a 'good' chicken is, and all based on what you want from your birds and your experience. I do not consider a good bird to be one that lays itself into an early grave but many think that's the standard of a bird earning her feed. Whatever works for the individual.

Comparing them to puppy mills is definitely accurate for some hatcheries. People condemning all puppy mills are making the distinction that all the animals are abused or neglected. So are many hatchery birds. Some hatcheries and puppy mills have higher standards than the prevailing public-image stereotypes. Also, we have higher standards for dogs; what is abuse for a dog is accepted for a chicken; what we define as abuse varies according to the animal we're abusing. It's ok for chickens to live in overcrowded, violent, unnatural circumstances, but not dogs, apparently.

(I'm not supporting intensive commercial breeding operations of any kind with those statements, in case anyone thought so).

While you didn't say all breeders are show breeders, Bullitt, you didn't make the differentiation at all, at least not in the first few pages I read, hence the number of people who have pointed that out to you. You wrote about hens who lay higher numbers of eggs from hatcheries and then wrote about hens from breeders who may never lay an egg but can win shows and then used that example as a reason for your preference for hatcheries over breeders. This overview excludes meat birds from hatcheries and productive show birds and other non-generalized examples and doesn't take into account factors many people consider necessary to judge a bird "good", like vigor, social tolerance, hardiness, foraging ability, etc.

There are good and bad hatcheries, good and bad commercial breeders, good and bad backyard breeders, etc and what makes them "bad" is primarily the quality of the product they turn out. Unfortunately many hatcheries are not known for great product value in terms of health and some other factors some folks consider of vital importance. Myself included.

Quantity of eggs in one year of life is generally a hatchery layer bird's single strong point, outweighed by its numerous failings or weak points, speaking of most hatcheries I have seen who breed high production commercial layers. The majority of hatchery birds I've seen, my own and others', are/were absolutely rife with social diseases (excessive aggression, neuroses, etc) as well as apparently guaranteed future diseases of several kinds (cardiovascular, reproductive, etc) and they never had a great start to life so will never catch up on a bird which was raised under better circumstances. They die young and riddled with health issues. Some buck the trend, of course.

Since I'm not one of those who thinks it's worthwhile to cull and replace all 2 year olds, I don't buy the sort of animal whose "use-by date" is well and truly up by the time they're approaching what is normally the prime of life for a healthy well-raised bird that was bred and reared with due care in a good environment.

Measuring production is only one facet of good breeding. Detrimental social instincts or behaviors are another facet which hatcheries often do not seem to do anything about but which have marked impacts on production and longevity and general health due to stress or damage. Again, I will just reiterate that I'm speaking of hatcheries in my experience and those of people I know --- but I don't believe all hatcheries are this way. I've gotten bad birds from breeders too. But overall, far better stock from backyard breeders than hatcheries.

Quantity of eggs per year does not matter to me when they are poor quality eggs. A hen who is laying under duress, kept producing the absolute maximum, is not able to keep herself in great health and the quality of her product suffers accordingly. It's like comparing home grown chicken with storebought. Storebought tastes like the proverbial fecal matter once you know what home grown tastes like. I keep poultry for family health and a sub par bird does not produce great eggs or flesh. I've taken hatchery birds and put them onto great diets and yet their eggs have never reached the quality of appearance, flavor, shelf life, fertility, resistance to microbial invasion, etc of non-hatchery bird's eggs.

For this reason I have dismissed from breeding programs and culled high production layers whose product was inferior to lower production ones. I want a hen who takes a short seasonal break to moult or brood and regenerate her tissues, and has strong laying seasons for many years, not just the first year or two of her life before she dies prematurely aged. Economy wise it has actually worked out as a saving for me to keep slightly lower production hens who live longer and don't wear themselves out young. They are more robust, most of them never need any TLC, and socially, immunologically, etc they are of greater value by far. All the TLC (and money) in the world couldn't save the hatchery birds I've had. I have never treated the majority of my non hatchery hens, since they don't require it, but not a single hatchery hen didn't need help, and not once, not twice... But repeatedly. Waste of time and money. Feed inefficient too. And their flesh was not worth eating.

I have bred high production hens but for the reasons stated prefer those who average a slightly lower egg count per year, for more years running. I find them far more feed efficient and hardy on average.

These are my reasons why I am suspicious of hatcheries in general but I am always open to there being the exception to the rule. Breeders of any stripe have both good and bad among their ranks.

Best wishes.

 

[chicksurreal]

If there is a bias against hatchery birds expressed by some people on this site (myself included) the reasons are almost always stated in those posts mentioning the bias.

At the same time, most people state the qualifier that not all hatcheries are like this. Certainly there is not any bias on this site in general; I would estimate that at least half of all poultry keepers on this site do use, or have used, a hatchery. Not all are unhappy with their experiences.

Everyone has different standards though, and I know that the poultry some people are satisfied with I would personally cull and consider a riddance of future trouble. They don't look healthy in many cases, but to those who don't know better, they are fine; also, if they perform to the standards expected by their owners, then their requirements have been met and therefore they have got their money's worth. Like you, many just want an egg a day or similar high production.

It's very variable, what a 'good' chicken is, and all based on what you want from your birds and your experience. I do not consider a good bird to be one that lays itself into an early grave but many think that's the standard of a bird earning her feed. Whatever works for the individual.

Comparing them to puppy mills is definitely accurate for some hatcheries. People condemning all puppy mills are making the distinction that all the animals are abused or neglected. So are many hatchery birds. Some hatcheries and puppy mills have higher standards than the prevailing public-image stereotypes. Also, we have higher standards for dogs; what is abuse for a dog is accepted for a chicken; what we define as abuse varies according to the animal we're abusing. It's ok for chickens to live in overcrowded, violent, unnatural circumstances, but not dogs, apparently.

(I'm not supporting intensive commercial breeding operations of any kind with those statements, in case anyone thought so).

While you didn't say all breeders are show breeders, Bullitt, you didn't make the differentiation at all, at least not in the first few pages I read, hence the number of people who have pointed that out to you. You wrote about hens who lay higher numbers of eggs from hatcheries and then wrote about hens from breeders who may never lay an egg but can win shows and then used that example as a reason for your preference for hatcheries over breeders. This overview excludes meat birds from hatcheries and productive show birds and other non-generalized examples and doesn't take into account factors many people consider necessary to judge a bird "good", like vigor, social tolerance, hardiness, foraging ability, etc.

There are good and bad hatcheries, good and bad commercial breeders, good and bad backyard breeders, etc and what makes them "bad" is primarily the quality of the product they turn out. Unfortunately many hatcheries are not known for great product value in terms of health and some other factors some folks consider of vital importance. Myself included.

Quantity of eggs in one year of life is generally a hatchery layer bird's single strong point, outweighed by its numerous failings or weak points, speaking of most hatcheries I have seen who breed high production commercial layers. The majority of hatchery birds I've seen, my own and others', are/were absolutely rife with social diseases (excessive aggression, neuroses, etc) as well as apparently guaranteed future diseases of several kinds (cardiovascular, reproductive, etc) and they never had a great start to life so will never catch up on a bird which was raised under better circumstances. They die young and riddled with health issues. Some buck the trend, of course.

Since I'm not one of those who thinks it's worthwhile to cull and replace all 2 year olds, I don't buy the sort of animal whose "use-by date" is well and truly up by the time they're approaching what is normally the prime of life for a healthy well-raised bird that was bred and reared with due care in a good environment.

Measuring production is only one facet of good breeding. Detrimental social instincts or behaviors are another facet which hatcheries often do not seem to do anything about but which have marked impacts on production and longevity and general health due to stress or damage. Again, I will just reiterate that I'm speaking of hatcheries in my experience and those of people I know --- but I don't believe all hatcheries are this way. I've gotten bad birds from breeders too. But overall, far better stock from backyard breeders than hatcheries.

Quantity of eggs per year does not matter to me when they are poor quality eggs. A hen who is laying under duress, kept producing the absolute maximum, is not able to keep herself in great health and the quality of her product suffers accordingly. It's like comparing home grown chicken with storebought. Storebought tastes like the proverbial fecal matter once you know what home grown tastes like. I keep poultry for family health and a sub par bird does not produce great eggs or flesh. I've taken hatchery birds and put them onto great diets and yet their eggs have never reached the quality of appearance, flavor, shelf life, fertility, resistance to microbial invasion, etc of non-hatchery bird's eggs.

For this reason I have dismissed from breeding programs and culled high production layers whose product was inferior to lower production ones. I want a hen who takes a short seasonal break to moult or brood and regenerate her tissues, and has strong laying seasons for many years, not just the first year or two of her life before she dies prematurely aged. Economy wise it has actually worked out as a saving for me to keep slightly lower production hens who live longer and don't wear themselves out young. They are more robust, most of them never need any TLC, and socially, immunologically, etc they are of greater value by far. All the TLC (and money) in the world couldn't save the hatchery birds I've had. I have never treated the majority of my non hatchery hens, since they don't require it, but not a single hatchery hen didn't need help, and not once, not twice... But repeatedly. Waste of time and money. Feed inefficient too. And their flesh was not worth eating.

I have bred high production hens but for the reasons stated prefer those who average a slightly lower egg count per year, for more years running. I find them far more feed efficient and hardy on average.

These are my reasons why I am suspicious of hatcheries in general but I am always open to there being the exception to the rule. Breeders of any stripe have both good and bad among their ranks.

Best wishes.

Thanks very much for sharing your experiences. We are very new to chicken keeping and are very interested in educating ourselves in this area.

We did go with hatchery chicks for our first chickens and have had what we believe to be a good experience, but our chickens are only 4 months old right now, so lots of time to see how it plays out in the long run.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Thanks very much for sharing your experiences. We are very new to chicken keeping and are very interested in educating ourselves in this area.

We did go with hatchery chicks for our first chickens and have had what we believe to be a good experience, but our chickens are only 4 months old right now, so lots of time to see how it plays out in the long run.

It's going to depend on your goals with keeping poultry. And I guarantee those goals will change over time. Will they be pets and live there a long time even after laying slows considerably? Or will you cull after a couple years and get a new batch of layers? Will you be breeding? Will you be showing? Are your breeding goals be to preserve a rare or heritage breed? The more you learn, the more you may try to do. Also, whether you start with hatchery birds or from a production or show breeder will be less of a concern down the road.
I rarely bring in a new bird any more except the rare time I want some new meaties to process.

 

[chicksurreal]

It's going to depend on your goals with keeping poultry. And I guarantee those goals will change over time. Will they be pets and live there a long time even after laying slows considerably? Or will you cull after a couple years and get a new batch of layers? Will you be breeding? Will you be showing? Are your breeding goals be to preserve a rare or heritage breed? The more you learn, the more you may try to do. Also, whether you start with hatchery birds or from a production or show breeder will be less of a concern down the road.
I rarely bring in a new bird any more except the rare time I want some new meaties to process.

Thanks! Those are all great questions and things we need to consider.

I know our goals have already changed just in the time that we've had them. We originally wanted them for eggs and bug control. I didn't realize how much I would enjoy them until we got them. We are planning to add about 40 more chicks in the spring, we have another coop in the works to accommodate them and are wondering which route to go to obtain the chicks, so I appreciate all the information I get here. It really helps to define how we will go forward.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Thanks! Those are all great questions and things we need to consider.

I know our goals have already changed just in the time that we've had them. We originally wanted them for eggs and bug control. I didn't realize how much I would enjoy them until we got them. We are planning to add about 40 more chicks in the spring, we have another coop in the works to accommodate them and are wondering which route to go to obtain the chicks, so I appreciate all the information I get here. It really helps to define how we will go forward.

Funny thing, I grew up with both layers and broilers, worked in the commercial industry and with breeders in the tropics but didn't have my own again till about 5 years ago. At the time, the stable near me closed. That's where I got manure for my garden. I initially got chickens this time around for the manure. Then realizing about the eggs, pest and weed control changed my perspective. It was also the first time I had my own roosters.
I've had close to 30 different breeds. My goals have now evolved to the point that I'm concentrating on preserving and improving one extremely rare breed/variety that is renown for the flavor of meat and the dark color of the eggs.
They still fertilize the garden and contribute weed and pest control. I may be a shape shifter.

 

[chicksurreal]

Funny thing, I grew up with both layers and broilers, worked in the commercial industry and with breeders in the tropics but didn't have my own again till about 5 years ago. At the time, the stable near me closed. That's where I got manure for my garden. I initially got chickens this time around for the manure. Then realizing about the eggs, pest and weed control changed my perspective. It was also the first time I had my own roosters.
I've had close to 30 different breeds. My goals have now evolved to the point that I'm concentrating on preserving and improving one extremely rare breed/variety that is renown for the flavor of meat and the dark color of the eggs.
They still fertilize the garden and contribute weed and pest control. I may be a shape shifter.

That's amazing, I love to hear stories like this. The impact our chickens have had on our lives is immeasurable. I never would have believed it before we got them.

 

[pwand]

Well that was weird! It didn't let me type anything just went ahead and posted! Sorry everyone!
I was just going to ask which hatchery this was, I live in bc and have decided to try hatchery birds for the first time for biosecurity reasons.

This is a very interesting topic by the way. I really can't comment on hatcheries as this will be my first time trying one. As you may have guessed; however, I have had bad experiences with a breeder. Partially my own fault for not using a "sacrifice bird" during quarantine. Lesson learned! It did lead me to start asking breeders about their biosecurity practises and was very disappointed. Not at all saying I have a problem with breeders. We just don't have anything like NPIP certification in Canada and I can't find a breeder who occasionally tests their birds so I'm going to try hatchery stock.

I prefer the hatchery in Alberta. Healthy chicks, oldest lived to 11 yrs old.
http://www.rochesterhatchery.com

I have not had great experience where the chicks come from in BC. The local feed store don't order anymore from Alberta, at least from here on Vancouver Island.

I order from Hatcheries so they are Vaccinated against Marek's Disease.