Why no washing/disinfecting eggs?

[BlacksheepCardigans]

I hatched Silkies, shipped - I lost a bunch post-day-19 because the shipping was terrible (not the shipper, the USPS) and air cells were very odd. I ended up with 12/20. However, ALL that I washed hatched. So I certainly didn't kill them or hurt them further by washing them.

I have a bunch of BLRW at 12 days now; I washed 4/8. All are developing.

 

[Muggsmagee]

Quote:
Inquiring minds want to know...were the shipped eggs washed or unwashed? Our home tests/experiments were only about washed/unwashed eggs. The source of eggs (your own vs. shipped) is helpful in knowing how successful your hatch was, but not for a complete means of this experiment. Day 19 or after death, sounds like an incubator problem, not a shipping problem. Maybe the bator was too packed? Maybe temp or humidity were off a bit. How many out of the original 20 eggs were washed? How many were unwashed? How many of each did you lose? That is the info I'm curious about. The scientific part of my brain is saying....Hmmmmm?

Good luck w/ your BLRW hatch. I'm curious how this will turn out for you.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

The deaths post-day-19 were all about air cells. I have a Brinsea Eco and it's very easy to regulate temp and humidity. The eggs were lost over the holiday weekend, spent five and a half days in transit. They arrived very cold and very dry; air cells were large and broken on a whole bunch. No matter how high I bumped the humidity I couldn't get the air cells to grow slowly; by the time they were trying to pip internally about a third of the egg was air and the cells were on the side of the egg, not the top-sloping-down-to-the-side. The strongest chicks made it out; the others couldn't uncurl enough in the small/tight membrane to pip. It was obvious what was happening and when we opened eggs at the end the dead chicks felt "dry" even though my humidity was 70+ from day 17 on (I put them in higher humidity a day early because I knew those air cells were going to be an issue). It's a tribute to the shipper that I got a dozen.

The BLRW eggs were a local pick-up. They're looking good and normal for their age.

Nothing we're doing is scientifically valid. The experiments that are valid have already been done, under controlled conditions, and show that washing improves hatchability. I'm only doing the half-and-half thing to prove in this thread that I'm not personally killing eggs by washing them, in case people have decided that they can't trust real studies. Nothing about my personal washing should be taken seriously, because I can't control any other factors.

 

[Muggsmagee]

Quote:
You still didn't answer the washed/unwashed question. Scientifically valid? Well...there's limited control within our experiments, but for sh*ts and giggles we can draw our own conclusions. Can our data be measured? You bet. Is it anectdotal (like you suggested)? Most likely.

We already know that washed eggs will hatch. That was a non issue. Is washing more beneficial to your hatch? Not likely. Your posted scientific studies back that up. It is only precautionary.

 

[knjinnm]

Quote:
Hi,
I can understand an egg being dry and starting to dehydrate but would cold impact an egg that hasn't been set? That is if the egg did not reach freezing temps if they were in the cargo hold of an airplane.

I recall one thread where a poster mentioned shipping eggs in a box labeled "Live embryos" but the thread quickly degenerated into shipping HAZMAT. Another poster mentioned shipping eggs in a shipping box for chicks or a larger shipping box with one larger bird to make sure the eggs were handled as shipped live cargo.


Out of the box question;
Would placing the egg in water, for a brief period of time, to rehydrate before going in the incubator help or drown the never been set embryo?

I checked BYC for pic's of broken air cells but did not find any. Does any one know of any pictures of broken air cells?

Joe

 

[Muggsmagee]

Quote:
Hi,
I can understand an egg being dry and starting to dehydrate but would cold impact an egg that hasn't been set? That is if the egg did not reach freezing temps if they were in the cargo hold of an airplane.

I recall one thread where a poster mentioned shipping eggs in a box labeled "Live embryos" but the thread quickly degenerated into shipping HAZMAT. Another poster mentioned shipping eggs in a shipping box for chicks or a larger shipping box with one larger bird to make sure the eggs were handled as shipped live cargo.


Out of the box question;
Would placing the egg in water, for a brief period of time, to rehydrate before going in the incubator help or drown the never been set embryo?

I checked BYC for pic's of broken air cells but did not find any. Does any one know of any pictures of broken air cells?

Joe

I haven't seen pics of broken air cells either, but I've heard plenty of people say the cells can be fixed. If you don't turn the egg in the bator for 5 days, etc, etc. I would like to see a pic...if I find one, I'll post it back here.

Don't quote me, but I think if you put the egg in water, you might just risk the air cell absorbing the water, or perhaps water getting between the 2 membranes. I do think you could drown it. Not sure. Anytime the egg absorbs something externally, you run the risk of introducing harmful bacteria/germs into the egg. The humidity in the bator helps to slow down the drying time/increasing the air sac. Can the air sac be decreased w/ high humidity? I didn't think so...but I'd be happy to hear otherwise.

 

[Katy]

Quote:
I don't agree that the deaths after day 19 were about the air cells....I agree with muggsmagee that that sounds like an incubating issue. I've set shipped eggs that had messed up aircells.....they either didn't develop at all or made it to the end and hatched. Since this "experiment" was about washed vs unwashed I'd like to know that too.....how many of the eggs that didn't make it were washed?

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

I am not afraid of cold eggs - but the fact that they were that cold was because they were sitting up here in MA/NH for days at the hub, probably on a loading dock. They were packed very carefully but it was a very cold, dry weekend.

I am not sure how you could rehydrate eggs. Old eggs always have lower hatchability even under the best conditions. If it ever happens again I may try running the hatch at a REALLY high humidity, 50% or more.

I am not sure of a picture - when you candle them you can easily see it. A healthy air cell sits at the top of the cell or very slightly over to one side and is held in place by the inner membrane being firmly attached to the egg. If it's peanut-shaped, moves when you move the egg, looks like it has bubbles in it, etc. it's because the membrane isn't stuck to the egg anymore. It's come loose, sometimes catastrophically loose, because the egg has been shaken or roughly rotated during shipping. Another sign that the egg has been rotated (the box has been toppled, laid on its head, thrown around, etc.) is that you get a lot of pips at the wrong end because the yolk got rotated and the chick developed at the wrong end. I had a bunch of those, too.

Oh, and I washed half a dozen of the silkies. One was smeared (washed that) and the others were just experiments. All the other eggs were VERY clean when they arrived. So on day 18 I had 12 unwashed and 6 washed. Hatched 6 washed, 6 unwashed. BUT IT MEANS NOTHING, beyond the fact that washing clearly wasn't poisonous to the eggs I got. It's all anecdotal. Could just have easily been because the ones I washed happened to be from younger hens, or had better genetics, or were younger eggs, or one of a thousand reasons. The controlled experiments are what matter, and they show that washing IMPROVES hatchability. Not just "doesn't hurt" it.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

Quote:
I know you don't like studies, but yes, late mortality is strongly associated with older eggs and dryer eggs. If the chick can't position to pip internally, if it's too dry, if it's too old, if it got rotated inside the shell - there are many reasons that shipped eggs have a very high mortality rate when they try to transition from embryo to chick.

 

[Muggsmagee]

Quote:
I know you don't like studies, but yes, late mortality is strongly associated with older eggs and dryer eggs. If the chick can't position to pip internally, if it's too dry, if it's too old, if it got rotated inside the shell - there are many reasons that shipped eggs have a very high mortality rate when they try to transition from embryo to chick.

Hmmm...I have had an eager interest in reading through this thread. I don't recall Katy saying she doesn't like studies. Just ones that are biased [loosely quoted]...to the benefit of the hatchery. Chicks can die in later stages from too much humidity, bacteria, cold, hot, etc, etc, etc. Shipped eggs are a gamble. Incubating is a gamble. No doubt. I had a Jersey Giant egg I almost tossed where 2/3 of the egg was air cell on day 17....this was a shipped batch. Last minute I put it back in the bator because I was inexperienced at the time. What was 4 more days to wait? The JG hatched no problem. Google dry hatches. People do those all the time with great success.

Now, my question to you is...why are you saying your results mean NOTHING? If you had 6 out of 12 eggs hatch that were unwashed, and 6 out of 6 eggs hatch that were washed. It means something...at least for you. If washing works for you...continue doing so. And if I get better results NOT washing my eggs, I will also continue to do so.

There is something to take from scientific experiments for the benefit of hatcheries...we can learn a bit from everyone if we need to. But it leaves something to be desired when eggs taken from a poo covered, crowded hatchery chicken coop is compared to a washed/disinfected egg and those resulting hatches. It all goes back to my very first post on this thread...hatchery experiments/hatching is not apples to apples w/ the backyard flock owner/hatcher. We raise our chickens differently, have different (lower quality usually) incubators...there are so many variables!

Maybe this is where we should send a letter to Mythbusters!