Worming chickens?

[pumpkin7734]

I was just reading somewhere that one should worm their chickens. Apparently not everyone does it. Is this something a lot of you recommend??

 

[chooks4life]

I would expect most people would recommend it for almost all circumstances. Unless you've got a breed which has retained all its wild instincts and which you keep in a fully naturalized environment complete with their natural controls for parasites. Which pretty much nobody does.

With domestics, they've generally lost significant portions of most of their instincts, they're very watered down so to speak and don't know anymore how to naturally worm themselves, what plants to eat, etc, so we must control that for them, plus immune system responses to parasites vary between breeds, family lines, and individuals. Plus most people don't know what to plant to give them natural worming options, and even if they did, most chooks would need time and possibly some training to re-learn to self-worm, and some would never be reliable at it.

Some chooks are never wormed and don't have issues but there's generally some other controls in place which the owners are often unaware of, like plants they're eating to control their parasites, or strong resistance to parasites, or ability to free range large areas and roost in different trees so they're not inhabiting and eating from the same small space of infected ground nonstop like caged chooks generally are... So I wouldn't decide not to worm my animals based on someone elses' lack of need to, it's got to be judged according to the individual circumstances. Also, some people don't realize they have issues in their flocks; when chooks drop dead they attribute it to something and think the chook was healthy up until then when in fact, in most cases, some disease or other issue was present for a while before the death. 'Old age' is generally the reasoning used but it's quite often simply not what actually happened to the chook.

Generally you should worm new stock because you don't know what it's been exposed to nor for how long. I put new stock onto a diet containing more raw garlic and cayenne than normal and they generally shift some large and dead or dying worms shortly afterwards. Others use chemical wormers, it's individual choice there as to what you do. If you're not familiar with herbal therapies and an animal is suspected of having significant established parasite populations it's probably safer and easier for you to just use something off the shelf.

I keep a regular 'just-in-case' parasite control program going which uses things like cayenne which I generally give in the week leading up to the full moon, as worms have lifecycles centered on the lunar cycle, generally coinciding with the full moon for the most part, so that's when they move into the intestines to breed, so wormers can then take out both the worms and their eggs in one go and they'll be naturally eliminated from the body. Even if you use chemical wormers that's the ideal time for most worm species to be targeted as otherwise you're killing them in other parts of the body like the internal organs and that leaves their bodies to rot inside the chook, which can kill them or make them very sick. But anytime you see symptoms of parasite burden, or suspect one, it's a good idea to worm, generally speaking. Some chooks show no symptoms before dropping dead. How often you can safely worm depends on whether you're using natural or chemical wormers. Also development of resistance to chemical wormers is an ongoing and accelerating problem all over the world, so it may be an idea to learn natural controls even if to begin with you decide to use chemicals. Many farmers are being left no choice but to turn from chemicals onto herbal wormers no matter how die-hard anti-herbalist they may have been, bit of a tough pill to swallow for some.

Best wishes. And

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s a personal choice for many people. Some people worm on a regular schedule whether there are any indications or not. Some of us treat only when we see a need.

If your chickens have worms, you should by all means treat them. If the numbers get out of hand they can be debilitating and even life-threatening. I don’t consider that a choice.

If you worm on a schedule, you have the question of which worms to treat for. Different worms require different treatment. Not all worm medications work for all worms.

Then you have the question of what typed to use. Some use over the counter medications that are formulated to take care of a specific type or types of worms. There are studies that show they work but they often require a withdrawal period before you start eating the eggs or meat. Some use so-called “natural” wormers. Many of these are convinced they work miracles but they can’t come up with any studies that actually show they work.

Some people feed all sorts of things and are convinced they prevent worms. There proof is that their chickens don’t have worms. I don’t feed those things and my chickens don’t have worms so I don’t consider that proof.

I have not seen any indications of worms in my flock since I got chickens here in 2008. I do not use any “natural” wormers. When I butcher I look inside the intestines to check for roundworms and tapeworms. Never seen any. If I do find some I’ll use a commercial wormer that I trust to get the job done. What you do is a personal choice.

 

[chooks4life]

Some use so-called “natural” wormers. Many of these are convinced they work miracles but they can’t come up with any studies that actually show they work.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own education, and some people expect others to do most of the work for them, often with a derogatory attitude which can result in people simply not complying with the commands issued so often. Clearly you're not a user of natural therapies, but can you imagine how very often those who do use those therapies are met with commands to go fetch links? Gets to the stage where you just refuse. I reached that stage long ago.

If you're genuinely interested in learning about the subject (which is best done before passing judgment on it), it may help you to begin your research by consulting vets and doctors who espouse natural therapies. There's plenty of them out there, and I'm talking about accredited ones, not those whose accreditation is dubious or strictly herbalist/natural-therapy only, but 'mainstream' ones.

I rarely provide links these days because most people who demand them are only asking for them because they refuse to look, and when they're provided, they still refuse to look... Not that I'm accusing you of willful ignorance or anything like that, just stating my stance on this perennial topic which flares up like clockwork anytime someone mentions anything including the word 'natural'. It's a knee-jerk reaction. Those who do want to know will learn. That's about all there is to it.

Some people feed all sorts of things and are convinced they prevent worms. There proof is that their chickens don’t have worms. I don’t feed those things and my chickens don’t have worms so I don’t consider that proof.

I have not seen any indications of worms in my flock since I got chickens here in 2008. I do not use any “natural” wormers. When I butcher I look inside the intestines to check for roundworms and tapeworms. Never seen any. If I do find some I’ll use a commercial wormer that I trust to get the job done. What you do is a personal choice.

There are actually many studies done on natural wormers, and they are proven effective in most of those studies as well, provided they were used in correct dosage and form. One only has to do a bit of research to find the information they're after, but it does exist.

Commercial organic animal product producers rely on natural wormers, not because they 'think' they work, but because they do. The same is true of producers of all sorts of organic plant products. You can't base a whole outcome-dependent industry off vague notions of 'miracles'. If you believe your chickens are being wormed by something and they're not, and you lose the lot or even most, you're out of business pretty darn quickly.

Personal choice should be based on education, and not just what the folks selling the products are telling you, either.

Best wishes.

 

[pumpkin7734]

Thanks for the feed back everyone!!! Guess I'll do a little more research and go from there. Haven't seen any trouble in my flock as of yet ... but they are only a few months old so far. Although I did notice one of my black australorps has watery poop. If anyone has any thoughts on what that might be (maybe even nothing), I'd love some advice! But I'll research that as well.

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks for the feed back everyone!!! Guess I'll do a little more research and go from there. Haven't seen any trouble in my flock as of yet ... but they are only a few months old so far. Although I did notice one of my black australorps has watery poop. If anyone has any thoughts on what that might be (maybe even nothing), I'd love some advice! But I'll research that as well.

My comment there wasn't directed at you, if you're unsure of something it's always good to ask anyone/everyone you think might know, as well as of course learn all you can and test it out rather than rely on book learning alone... I'm still a learner, we all are, and asking questions is one of the best ways to learn, so go for it.

About the only time you should really have done your research before voicing an opinion pro- or anti- anything is when your opinion is being voiced expressly to dismiss someone elses' opinion.

Then it's kind of necessary for you to have something valid to support your stance on it, and it helps if people don't use emotive or passive-aggressive or derogatory remarks to try to paint someone elses' opinion as baseless. If it's incorrect and you're sure of it, surely you can just point out the reasons why, without being snarky about it. 'They didn't give me links' is not a good reason for voicing an opinion anti anything someone else states when one is both unfamiliar with the subject and capable of doing their own research into it.

Generally I see eye to eye with Ridgerunner on many things but obviously the herbal therapy issue is not one of them. If we cannot agree I'd appreciate it if we could agree to disagree and not dismiss others' methods because we haven't done research on them or have no experience with them or whatever our reasons are... The reality is that both herbal and chemical wormers work if you're using them in correct dose and form, and in the case of chemical wormers, not against worms who are resistant or immune to them.

As for the watery poop, could be cocci, could be quite a lot of things. I use freshly minced raw garlic for a lot of issues as it covers a very wide variety of issues (because it works, of course, not because I'm merely 'convinced' without any basis for such conviction)... It's specifically anti-cocci too. Let me know if you'd like some info on that subject... I should write up a doc and copy paste rather than writing it out repeatedly for different folks, lol. But I've found it to be a lifesaver and great at preventing problems.

Diarrhea has some natural and positive functions too, it's also a defense mechanism used to eliminate toxins and pathogenic or parasitic issues, and as such, sometimes if it's artificially stopped it can kill the animal or human, but if it continues too long or is too severe one can assume it needs attending to. Generally by the time you see it, it should have served its purpose and it's fine to begin treating immediately if the animal is not overcoming it unassisted within a day or so. Treatment can be anything from simple to complex but best to start simple and harmless unless you see other symptoms or have reason to believe it's a serious issue. I use raw apples, just smash them on the ground for them, for most diarrhea, that does it in most cases. Some would use antibiotics, that is, artificial ones not natural ones, so if you prefer to go that route someone else can assist you there.

Best wishes to all.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Chooks that was not a personal attack aimed at you. I was typing when you posted and never saw your post until after I had posted mine.

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks for clarifying. Your post was so similar to some of the replies I get when detailing the worming methods I use that I assumed, since it followed my post, it was directed at my methods. I did suspect afterwards that I've somewhat overreacted based on the commonality of receiving similar responses (or far nastier ones) referring to my methods.

Apologies for that. I understand your stance on it but am a bit tired of people outright dismissing my methods based usually on misunderstandings or lack of experience/knowledge concerning the subject.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Regarding those studies people haven't provided to back up their natural worming methods... I've seen and read quite a few in past but right after your post I did a Google search and found numerous studies and sites containing links to further studies within the first 2 pages, including PubMed (where once again you can find studies both pro and anti anything) and other sources which are pretty universally considered acceptable and reputable.

If you search for anything regarding antiparasitic herbs, using whatever keywords you choose, you will find the sort of info you're after there if you're interested and willing to take the time to research it. The same herbs used on other species including mammals are used on chooks, generally speaking, with very few exceptions and none in the studies I found.

Best wishes.

 

[sumi]

Here is a very interesting read on the topic:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-not-coryza-or-crd-parasites-are-rampant/0_30