Would Silver Penciled Plymouth Rocks be a good choice for someone's first SOP breeding project?

[QueenMisha]

Wow. So much information to process! I just want to thank you all for your contributions, you all are such experienced folks and I truly appreciate ya'll taking the time to chime in.

Check out those beauties in Fred's avatar! Breeder quality standard bred Rhode Island Reds are a striking bird and better layer than standard bred Rocks. Matt1616 here has some fine New Hampshire and stunning White Rock too. As you know I have the Silver Penciled. It took persistence and luck to get the best possible stock. They still need work and I'm in it for the long haul, it's the only variety we keep. To get hatching eggs of current line took time and energy to obtain. The temperment of this variety is incredible and the other factor for not wanting to have another variety or breed. The best behaved cock birds I've ever had and that's important with young children. The biggest problem with this variety is they brood and they brood and after you've broken every hen twice since spring and think you'll finally get some eggs a few try and brood again late fall. Not your best choice if eggs are important to you. They can produce good egg numbers but year totals are shot as they don't lay for a few weeks after breaking brood. I hope the line acquired this spring isn't as broody as the first. It's by far better type and years ahead of working with our original line. If you decide you really want this variety look me up next spring. Of all that hatched of the new to me line (Robert Murphy) two pullets will be in a breeding pen. I may be able to spare a few eggs.

Yes, I saw your post the other day. I totally know what you mean about broodiness! I have a love-hate relationship with that factor of the variety. On one hand... they're great mommas who give me great hatches. On the other hand, I just can't get them off the nest! I appreciate the offer and will take it under consideration. I would be honored to work with a line that has been improved upon such as yours, but I think I'll be taking full advantage of the coming cold season to kind of hunker down and consider where I want to go and what I can reasonably handle and am willing to take on.

I thought about this a lot last night..... I'm 100% behind Fred. This would be a bad variety for a beginner. Probably just detrimental to the breed. However, I don't think you classify as a beginner. True, you've not bred SOP birds before. But, from what I see of your posts here, you have a wonderful foundation. I think the most important thing is an eye for quality and shape, and you seem to have that. If you were on here with pics of your hard feathered, 7lb, vertical tailed lavender "Orpington" roo and couldn't understand why he wasn't the bestest, most blue-ribbon deserving bird ever just because he is sooo sweet and you love him.....I'd say no way I think you may be just what this variety needs. You're young, and as you put it, enamored with the breed. That passion will go a long ways, which will be good as you'll be in for a long haul . You could start with a more common breed, but what I see from your post is you'll come back to the penciled birds. If you've got the space, etc....maybe go with two projects. Whites and Silver Penciled. The Whites would move faster for you, getting to where you want to go. The penciled birds could be kind of a background project, as they'll take longer. You can start small and take your time. And find a good mentor, as Fred said.

I like the suggestion of perhaps having them as a background project, while focusing on the White Rocks. I know it takes time to develop real quality birds and perhaps it would not be a bad idea to simply run a smallish flock of them, provided I can get decent stock, and see if I can get anywhere with them. I expect to have the time and such... space is another factor, I am no sort of carpenter so it can take a while to get things built and put up around here. But I plan on getting another two or three coops in by spring, so we'll see.

Being in California also presents it's own unique challenges. It's almost a different country, poultry wise speaking. You'll have to attend the Biggest Baddest show out there, which, BTW the APA national was last held in Modesto so I sure how you attended. Without an extra ordinary start from someone who will entrust you with great breeder stock? Your climb will be discouraging. One reason, among a dozen good reasons, to start with a black or white bird you really like is that you have earn your way into respectability, no one hands it to you. You've got to prove yourself and show up with birds your've bred, raised and conditioned and catch the "eye" of your fellow poultry women and me.. Folks just don't have enough good starter stock, stock worthy of breeding to push these venerable, rare old Large Fowl forward. Are they going to entrust what few there are to beginners? I know this sounds so snooty but it really is not. Because for every person that helps the breed/variety there are a dozen who either ruin them through ignorance or are here to day, gone tomorrow. Experienced breeders want to see what you're made of. Trust has to be built and honestly, that just takes time and relationships need to be nurtured. This is also a huge part of what a good mentor can help you navigate. I want to encourage as I do encourage all sincere, dedicated young folk to become breeders of these vanishing Large Fowl in all there various glory and varieties. We need you onboard, but we need you to succeed, not succumb to discouragement. Best wishes and here's to hoping it works out well for you.

Thank you so much. I absolutely understand what you're saying and you don't sound snooty at all. If I had my own incredibly high quality stock, I'd also be worried trusting it to someone who may not do right by it. I'd love to find a mentor but I wouldn't be sure where to even begin - I'm acquainted with a few breeders but I don't really know any of them terribly well. My boss is a great man and friend and his husbandry of his birds is impeccable but he's kept hatchery stock since forever so he can't help me in this factor. For now I suppose I can only hope to do what I can on my own, through reading and studying the standard and getting the advice of breeders when I can, and perhaps I will eventually be able to "catch the eye" of some great poultrypeople.

Thanks for the eye candy Fred. All beautiful birds but can't stop drooling at that White's form. For fun I'm going to run out and see if I can get a candid of one of the two that I'll be breeding. It's cold and windy today so is the best pose I could wait for. Not too bad for SPPR. I take no credit for this bird. She's pure Murphy. All I did was stalk him for awhile online, show interest and some knowledge, have a lot of persistence then drove two states away to pick up eggs direct from him and incubate. That's nothing compared to the decades Robert put into his birds. Side note is while there he showed me his pet project Pyle Plymouth's. Simply stunning as it's entirely new variety and they are definitely Rock type. Like all long time breeders a joy to talk with and see his birds in person.

That is an incredible bird. Simply gorgeous. And I definitely see the difference between that bird and my stock. While mine are definitely nowhere near hatchery, I can easily see the difference between them and that gorgeous pullet. Thank you for sharing. Apologies for any typos or such in all of this, my mind is reeling trying to absorb all this information. Again, thank you all so much for your time and wise words.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

The biggest thing with the laced, penciled and even barred to some extent is people get too focused on those elements. You need the pattern or color to keep producing the variety but they all can't be winners. Folks will breed to better pattern first and that will take the birds in a wrong direction. You have to look at the entire forest and not any one tree. It's the body type that makes the breed and that must always be primary focus.

Take Fred's White Plymouth Rock. I'm drooling over it as my bird is a bit short in length. It's an element my bird needs. But if you really look at the white it's almost too much tail. A pullet in between the two birds back line would be spot on. The bird should be balanced front to back. Pullets should have full breast and outline of a gravy bowl. It's these little things that can easily be missed when a person is working with patterns and color. To be honest I've been so good about culling for type and width I almost tagged a cockerel last week for the breeder pen finals before realizing something didn't seem quite right. It took a long time to figure out why he looked off. Believe it or not I almost tagged a cockerel with near full white neck. His wing set, breast and tail lift were spot on. I was so keyed in on type I almost missed he was a disqualification in color. So it's not that they are harder to work than say a white they just have one more thing to look for and it happens to be the only element most see and say "beautiful bird!". The'll miss the squirrel tail or black legs or hatchet chest or drooping wings that are all disqualifications to being a Rock. I was tickled that Fred said I had nice ROCKs. You could make a silhouette of her body and compare to Fred's Plymouth Rocks and they'd be strikingly similar. They are all Rocks. My pullet is no show winner, for a Silver Penciled she is one heck of a start to making a flock. What makes her so special is there are a handful or less Silver Penciled flocks out there at her quality of breed type.

The good news is birds grow slow enough you've an entire summer to look them over. Culling can be done on one element each time you need to get rid of birds to make space. One morning I went out and only looked to see if there was any red in the cockerels. Pulled out three birds to process in no time. Next time I butchered I pulled out the smallest two and one with a low hanging wing. This weekend will be a cull for tail set (22 weeks so tails are coming in) and that white necked one will go. By chipping away at the group you'll get down to manageable numbers and still have plenty of time to look them over for final culls. You can't look over all the birds for all the elements every time but by picking one trait and taking away the worst of your stock you've improved the quality of what's left. Process of elimination- rather than trying to find the best take the worst away and see what you've got left.

 

[Fred's Hens]

She doesn't have too much tail. Just about right. The standard calls for "medium tail with medium width of spread", that part is spot on. That is also body back there, not just fluff either. This is why handling birds is key. I handled a dozen birds at a recent show and many were mostly feathers and the bird was under weight to my hands. When you pick up a Rock they should feel like a geological rock. Thus the breeds name. One bird can look bigger but actually weigh much less than a slightly smaller looking bird, with tighter feathering and higher body density.

Each breeder sees the standard through their own lens and that's as it should be. For me, body density is key, followed by no excess feathering fluffed up. That's not what a Rock is in my book. But that's just me.

What that young pullet doesn't "yet" have in this picture, as she was way too young, was her full breast. That comes in earlier or later depending on the strain. I'd prefer a quicker "showing" of the breast, but some lines and some individuals just won't until they're older.

The other sobering concern she has is thigh. I'd prefer a Rock to show a well defined thigh and close feathering on that thigh will draw attention to it. Also, her underline is not entirely proper but the next generation has shown females with improvement in that. The photo above was two years ago.

Finally, the pullet above didn't like to lift that tail. This is both behavioral and structural. The tail set of a Rock is NOT an easy task to set in your line. The breed is frequently shown with not enough spread, too long of coverts and main tail feather, too short as well.

The current faddishness is showing Rocks with the cushion and tail set starting to make a Verizon "V" already at the base of the hackles, rising at a 35 degree angle. This too is admired by many but is dead wrong for a top line. Just dead wrong. The back should show on a Rock. The curvature should be slow and gentle making a proper swoop.

The mythology that Rocks are easy is just that. Mythology. The other American class breed is also the Red. Another that is entirely exasperatingly difficult to breed. There is no such thing as a nice easy path in this hobby. Lots of work. Lots of challenges.

Mentors are found through relationship. If you show your humility and willingness to listen and learn, you will find mentors quick to help. They're found in the aisles of the larger exhibitions, caring for their birds and talking "bird talk". Mentors are quite willing to handle your birds, if you ask. But if you begin to make excuses or not listen? They just walk away and you'd have missed an opportunity. The "rep" you want to develop, the "cred" you must earn is this. That you're teachable. That you work hard. That you care. That you listen and learn.

 

[QueenMisha]

So this is a terribly late response on my account, apologies for that. Life got in the way again!

The biggest thing with the laced, penciled and even barred to some extent is people get too focused on those elements. You need the pattern or color to keep producing the variety but they all can't be winners. Folks will breed to better pattern first and that will take the birds in a wrong direction. You have to look at the entire forest and not any one tree. It's the body type that makes the breed and that must always be primary focus. Take Fred's White Plymouth Rock. I'm drooling over it as my bird is a bit short in length. It's an element my bird needs. But if you really look at the white it's almost too much tail. A pullet in between the two birds back line would be spot on. The bird should be balanced front to back. Pullets should have full breast and outline of a gravy bowl. It's these little things that can easily be missed when a person is working with patterns and color. To be honest I've been so good about culling for type and width I almost tagged a cockerel last week for the breeder pen finals before realizing something didn't seem quite right. It took a long time to figure out why he looked off. Believe it or not I almost tagged a cockerel with near full white neck. His wing set, breast and tail lift were spot on. I was so keyed in on type I almost missed he was a disqualification in color. So it's not that they are harder to work than say a white they just have one more thing to look for and it happens to be the only element most see and say "beautiful bird!". The'll miss the squirrel tail or black legs or hatchet chest or drooping wings that are all disqualifications to being a Rock. I was tickled that Fred said I had nice ROCKs. You could make a silhouette of her body and compare to Fred's Plymouth Rocks and they'd be strikingly similar. They are all Rocks. My pullet is no show winner, for a Silver Penciled she is one heck of a start to making a flock. What makes her so special is there are a handful or less Silver Penciled flocks out there at her quality of breed type. The good news is birds grow slow enough you've an entire summer to look them over. Culling can be done on one element each time you need to get rid of birds to make space. One morning I went out and only looked to see if there was any red in the cockerels. Pulled out three birds to process in no time. Next time I butchered I pulled out the smallest two and one with a low hanging wing. This weekend will be a cull for tail set (22 weeks so tails are coming in) and that white necked one will go. By chipping away at the group you'll get down to manageable numbers and still have plenty of time to look them over for final culls. You can't look over all the birds for all the elements every time but by picking one trait and taking away the worst of your stock you've improved the quality of what's left. Process of elimination- rather than trying to find the best take the worst away and see what you've got left.

That's what I'm hearing and seeing a lot. Because I look at my current Silver Penciled Rocks and think "ooh, that's a nice looking bird." But the first thing that draws my eye and the thing that makes me think that straight off is, in fact, the pattern. If I try to look at them and pretend they're white or black... looking at shape alone... yeah, not a great bird. Not AWFUL, but... not great. So it's becoming clear that something I'm going to have to focus on training myself on is looking at type, past color. Yup, not easy. I really like your advice about starting by removing the worst and culling down to the best. That's so much easier and clear cut than what I was trying to do this year, which basically was going out and trying to pick out the best from a whole crop of birds who hadn't been culled at all yet.

She doesn't have too much tail. Just about right. The standard calls for "medium tail with medium width of spread", that part is spot on. That is also body back there, not just fluff either. This is why handling birds is key. I handled a dozen birds at a recent show and many were mostly feathers and the bird was under weight to my hands. When you pick up a Rock they should feel like a geological rock. Thus the breeds name. One bird can look bigger but actually weigh much less than a slightly smaller looking bird, with tighter feathering and higher body density. Each breeder sees the standard through their own lens and that's as it should be. For me, body density is key, followed by no excess feathering fluffed up. That's not what a Rock is in my book. But that's just me. What that young pullet doesn't "yet" have in this picture, as she was way too young, was her full breast. That comes in earlier or later depending on the strain. I'd prefer a quicker "showing" of the breast, but some lines and some individuals just won't until they're older. The other sobering concern she has is thigh. I'd prefer a Rock to show a well defined thigh and close feathering on that thigh will draw attention to it. Also, her underline is not entirely proper but the next generation has shown females with improvement in that. The photo above was two years ago. Finally, the pullet above didn't like to lift that tail. This is both behavioral and structural. The tail set of a Rock is NOT an easy task to set in your line. The breed is frequently shown with not enough spread, too long of coverts and main tail feather, too short as well. The current faddishness is showing Rocks with the cushion and tail set starting to make a Verizon "V" already at the base of the hackles, rising at a 35 degree angle. This too is admired by many but is dead wrong for a top line. Just dead wrong. The back should show on a Rock. The curvature should be slow and gentle making a proper swoop. The mythology that Rocks are easy is just that. Mythology. The other American class breed is also the Red. Another that is entirely exasperatingly difficult to breed. There is no such thing as a nice easy path in this hobby. Lots of work. Lots of challenges. Mentors are found through relationship. If you show your humility and willingness to listen and learn, you will find mentors quick to help. They're found in the aisles of the larger exhibitions, caring for their birds and talking "bird talk". Mentors are quite willing to handle your birds, if you ask. But if you begin to make excuses or not listen? They just walk away and you'd have missed an opportunity. The "rep" you want to develop, the "cred" you must earn is this. That you're teachable. That you work hard. That you care. That you listen and learn.

So - regarding the first paragraph. That's very interesting. I never thought that the name might refer to them actually feeling like a Rock, but in hindsight that would fall perfectly in line with their historically excellent reputation as a dual purpose fowl. My Silver Pencileds have always seemed reasonably heavy, definitely not skinny like hatchery birds. But I was rather wondering at what age they will typically "fill out", if they're of the breeding to be a heavy bird rather than just well feathered (which does seem like an important feature to me as well - nothing wrong with a bird who's all fluff, if that's what it's supposed to be like. But it seems kinda... false, for a dual purpose bird to be reduced to a big ol skinny pile of feathers. After all, I'll be the one eating all those birds who don't make the cut in any program I start, and I don't wanna be eating skin and bones either!) I ask because I've been closely eyeing up my Barred Rock, who I keep looking at and thinking, that seems like a nice bird! And then I try to ignore her pattern, pretend she's white, and look again, and I still end up thinking "nice bird." However, she is definitely pretty skinny - not unhealthy skinny, but not... bulky. At all. However, she's also only 16 weeks, and I know how these old, true breeds can grow slow. So is there a chance she will bulk up as she grows, or is she more likely gonna remain one of those "fluffy" Rocks? I can't help but think she would've have been getting meaty by now if she was going to, but again, I'm hesitant to trust my own judgement completely at this point. Here are a couple photos of her:

I'm starting to realize more and more that there is no such thing as an easy bird to breed. Seems like there's difficult birds to breed, and then there's really, really difficult birds to breed. So many little considerations... so much work. I feel like if I loved the birds any less I'd be backing out now and sticking to barnyard mutts. But I have a passion for these things, a feeling I get when I go to a show and look at REAL chickens, that I just don't get for anything else. So it looks like I'll be in this big old hassle of a hobby for a long time. I'm already getting excited for the big PPBA show in Modesto this year... hopefully I'll get the chance to talk to some serious and experienced breeders there. I had been hoping to check out the Ohio National this November, since I know I would be able to gain just a wealth of experience from that, but it doesn't look too good for that - just too much going on to drop everything and fly to Ohio right now. Next year though... I'll make it out there by next year if it kills me! Again. Thank you both for your input. I've learned so much from this thread alone, and I'm so glad I decided to put this question out there. I'm becoming more and more sure that Rocks are a breed I'd like to focus on heavily.

 

[WyandotteTX]

As a veteran of breeding Silver Penciled Wyandotte bantams for 2 decades, I would have to say run away as fast as possible. Find a solid color or more established variety of patterned bird to focus on.
With Silver Penciled you will have to double mate to produce exhibition quality males and females, which means you will need to have two separate breeding lines of birds to produce anything that will compete. Secondly, you will need a third line of birds to cross out to other more established varieties within the breed to improve type.
In the past 5 years we have hatched over 500 SP birds with only keeping no more than 12 each year to breed from the next.
SP is not for the feint of heart, there are enormous challenges within the variety but they are also absolutely stunning when bred correctly.
Hope this helps...

 

[My animal farm]

Check out those beauties in Fred's avatar! Breeder quality standard bred Rhode Island Reds are a striking bird and better layer than standard bred Rocks. Matt1616 here has some fine New Hampshire and stunning White Rock too.

As you know I have the Silver Penciled. It took persistence and luck to get the best possible stock. They still need work and I'm in it for the long haul, it's the only variety we keep. To get hatching eggs of current line took time and energy to obtain. The temperment of this variety is incredible and the other factor for not wanting to have another variety or breed. The best behaved cock birds I've ever had and that's important with young children. The biggest problem with this variety is they brood and they brood and after you've broken every hen twice since spring and think you'll finally get some eggs a few try and brood again late fall. Not your best choice if eggs are important to you. They can produce good egg numbers but year totals are shot as they don't lay for a few weeks after breaking brood. I hope the line acquired this spring isn't as broody as the first. It's by far better type and years ahead of working with our original line.

If you decide you really want this variety look me up next spring. Of all that hatched of the new to me line (Robert Murphy) two pullets will be in a breeding pen. I may be able to spare a few eggs.

I am interested In some eggs. If you guys have some available. 909-379-3217