BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Arielle]

Hmmm, kind of like using Secretariat as the parent stud eh?

I have bred horses for many years. Big Red was a great race horse, and yes a good producer but not the best. Few have heard of NijinskyII who had a far higher stud fee than Secretariat. WHy you ask? Because he produced better performers.

Yet even in breeding horses rarely is a stallion bred to his daughter. THe benefits of organized breeds with a club and recordsopen to all is that the top performers can be ID'd and another stallion can be selected that is also good without going back to the sire.

There might be a number of full brothers , or a very good sire with a slew of sons in the breeding shed, so over the generations it is acceptable to cross back to a related line if one thinks that is valuable.

In breeding, crossing the right lines requires a life time of knowledge; understanding a l ine well and knowing how it mixes with another is remarkable in my eyes. Having a mentor is a remarkable boon. A mentor can fill in gaps of knowledge in short time. As most of us on this thread dont have such we are eager to hear from those willing to fill in and share what they do know.

Edite to add this-- I dont breed TB, but the breed I do used TB as an improver. ANd only about 2-3 TB are approved for breeding. In a word. THe stallion committee is VERY VERY picky. Only20-30 new stallions a year total accepted. About 250 stallions producing 12,000 foals.

 

[gjensen]

Not George, but I'll give this a shot. This is, in plain language, a kind of cloning. By breeding offspring back to parents, one is reducing the number of expressions, in phenotype, the type we see.

The reason for doing this works best if the the starting pair is an outstanding pair. We'd like to "magically" have 40 more birds just like those two original birds. By tight line breeding, you reproduce a flock of birds that are level, or mostly all look like peas in a pod. If the original pair are wonderful, the goal is to produce a level bunch of birds "cloned" off that pair. Culling off anything not to the ideal desired. After four generations, you've got a group of birds that truly reproduce after their kind. Peas in a pod.

If the original pair is not great, but quite poor, this tight line breeding will likely only produce a "cloned" grouping of equally poor birds.

This is a helpful contribution.

To encourage the conversation . . .

Many have some irrational aversion to line breeding or in breeding. Both has it's time and place. Even a brother and sister mating (in a not already too close flock) can be useful. The inbreeding coefficient is not any different for brother x sister in the first couple generations, than father x daughter etc. Obviously there is a point where we can take it too far, but many have used it an attempt to "set" certain traits with good effect.

We forget that the high producing commercial strains are the result of crossing tightly bred uniform flocks. The goal of any intelligent breeding is a uniform flock adhering closely to some standard. Whether that is for show, sport, or production.

 

[Our Roost]

This is not my first confession. It will truly be my first attempt at crossbreeding. I can only select what I feel is the best suited from my 5 years experience with birds. This is for my own utility use and although it will create a new breed, I know it will take time to perfect a good progeny. I definitely appreciate the input as I would have been lost without it.

 

[gjensen]

This is not my first confession. It will truly be my first attempt at crossbreeding. I can only select what I feel is the best suited from my 5 years experience with birds. This is for my own utility use and although it will create a new breed, I know it will take time to perfect a good progeny. I definitely appreciate the input as I would have been lost without it.

Even in a project, once you have produced a bird or birds to your liking, you will have to "tighten back" up to set the characteristics you are looking for. You the breeder, have to gain some control over the direction. Once you have identified those individuals or that individual, what you want to do is make more of them. Similar to how Fred described.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

... If I cross rooster A to Hen B I should get both some hens and roos... I have but 1 rooster to cross back to at this time. Is it recommended to cross the offspring hens back to another rooster of the same breed later?

Rooster A over Hen B produces pullets and cockerels. It takes a year for the chicks to turn into hens and cocks. (Not marsupials.)
If Rooster A, (or Hen B,) is less than spectacular, cross the better-than-he-is daughters with the better-than-he-is sons. Don't linebreed inferior animals. If all the offspring are inferior to the parents, pick new parents.
Just my opinion.
I also recommend the book on linebreeding by Lentz. Even though it is written about cattle, the concepts explained there are very pertinent to poultry, especially the part about culling hard and early.
Best wishes,
Angela

 

[hellbender]

With all our hypothetical breeding propositions, let's not forget that breed to the best available should be entered into only after considering all likely possibilities.....at least the known possibilities.

I personally know three people who were ruined in almost every conceivable way by basing all breeding on one stud and a couple of stud colts and fillies that this fine beast had sired...the never-to-be-forgotten nor forgiven.... the great stallion named Impressive.

Even some App. and other color and part-breed clubs faced ruination. We owned a fine young granddaughter out of a CRHA mare that was skipped and she remained a fine using horse her entire life but she was never bred...not ever.

 

[Arielle]

With all our hypothetical breeding propositions, let's not forget that breed to the best available should be entered into only after considering all likely possibilities.....at least the known possibilities.

I personally know three people who were ruined in almost every conceivable way by basing all breeding on one stud and a couple of stud colts and fillies that this fine beast had sired...the never-to-be-forgotten nor forgiven.... the great stallion named Impressive.

Even some App. and other color and part-breed clubs faced ruination. We owned a fine young granddaughter out of a CRHA mare that was skipped and she remained a fine using horse her entire life but she was never bred...not ever.

ROFL I had forgotten about him!!! OMG the inbreeding was IMPRESSIVE!! lol He was gorgeous though. He was a pin up for sure.

A great example offa quirky gene, that appeared in Impressive and it was a recessive. He created his own disease in the inbred generations to follow. Later a test was developed to help the breeders make good linebreeding decisions.

 

[gjensen]

There has been some good contributions on this topic.

Another good book for poultry breeders, new and old, is Cocking Science by Old Family. It is worth the read no matter what we are breeding. It was recommended to me by a friend, and was a very good recommendation. It can be found on Amazon, and is a great book on breeding birds. We can love or hate the old cockers, but they did know their craft. A lot that we know, originated with them.

Books on breeding animals of all kinds is helpful, and broadens our paradigm. We should be aware however that everything does not apply when the subject switches species. Poultry is much more tolerant of inbreeding than some of the large animals for example. Still in poultry, as in anything, it can be carried too far.
Another difference is the volume of offspring that we can see in a single year vs. large mammals. We can also know problems sooner, and not as much been committed or invested before we are aware.

One common theme that most have remarked on is the emphasis on quality examples. There is no good reason to pre commit to anything, unless there is a specific reason where it is necessary. Kim is right. If some of the offspring are better, use the offspring. Why go back the wrong way?

There is so many different scenarios that there are no hard and fast rules that apply universally. I have several scenarios on my yard alone. Not to mention that when the offspring are grown out, there can plenty of reasons to change our minds. I always reserve the right to change my mind.

 

[hellbender]

ROFL I had forgotten about him!!! OMG the inbreeding was IMPRESSIVE!! lol He was gorgeous though. He was a pin up for sure.

A great example offa quirky gene, that appeared in Impressive and it was a recessive. He created his own disease in the inbred generations to follow. Later a test was developed to help the breeders make good linebreeding decisions.

YEP.

 

[ocap]

for some reason my cross breeding chart won't post