BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[southernmomma]

Dual purpose, the label, is generally misunderstood. The label means that the laying hens have enough flesh to be useful after they are replaced. In that sense, most are. The desire was to have a good fowl for the table, and the spent layer to not be a waste product. This meant birds with more flesh, which also meant larger birds. Some of the larger breeds were never known for this for misc reasons. For example, Minorca. They are large enough, but the emphasis was the exceptionally large eggs. Certainly doesn't mean that there is not enough flesh on the hen to be useful though. The males take too long to fill out the extra large frame to ever be known as a meat bird.

Modern concepts of efficiency have proved this concept to be irrelevant, but it is still relevant to small flocks that do not fit modern standards for efficiency.

Contrary to our thinking the smaller more active birds are the most efficient birds for small farms. We do not keep large dual purpose fowl for their efficiency, but for our pleasure.

Modern fast maturing breeds have the most potential for some level of efficiency. Birds processed at the peak of their growth curve, that comes as early as possible, is the birds most efficiently processed. Raising birds to older ages, gets less and less efficient. This is the concept behind the modern broiler industry, started by birds like the new Hampshire and Delaware. That is part of the draw to the Catalana Delaware, and New Hampshire for me. I call the Catalana the "Spanish New Hampshire".

Other than European styled "fattening" fowl, the concept of raising chicken for meat is modern. The move to the cities at the turn of the century opened this market it up. Before fowl meat was a luxury for the wealthy or a seasonal treat for the peasant. Generally speaking.

If for no other reason than your ability to be so darned reasonable, I should just throw up my hands and invest in Games or OEG's, lol....seriously~ broody for sure, fast maturing and who needs 7 lbs of chicken meat? Good grief not me!

I'm honestly not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing or attempting to enlighten but you do, without fail, make me think.

Thank you

M

 

[BGMatt]

@gjensen - How would you compare the Catalana to the rest of the mediterranean class breeds? As far as efficiency, growth, meat qualities, laying qualities etc?

 

[Arielle]

Quote:

Quote: You said if far better than I did George.

Quote: mulling . . . .

 

[gjensen]

@gjensen - How would you compare the Catalana to the rest of the mediterranean class breeds? As far as efficiency, growth, meat qualities, laying qualities etc?

They should be better (for meat), but I would not say that mine are not. They are fast to sexually mature, but slow to flesh out.

As far as eggs, I am not certain. This generation should tell me more. Next year, I will not be as closely bred.

Getting established from a small group I have mixed ages etc. The early hatchers, molted and I mixed age groups eventually. I also do not know what all of the other Meds do. I hear some different things, and it seams to vary. Don claims the highest with his Leghorns that I feel like I can take seriously.
Without lights, I would say that they are around 200 - 210 pullet year layers. I am wondering if I managed them for winter layers with lights etc., if they could not be 240 egg layers. This is with an inbred flock, which I am fixing. They are good winter layers, but of course would be better with lights.
I can expect 5 eggs per week from most of them. One here is going 6 per week pretty reliably. I also have a pair that is hurting the average with a little better than 4 per week. The average is 5 1/2 per week. I think that is pretty good for a flock that is a little "too close".

I believe that a 240 pullet year layer, with lights is pretty darned good. I do not know what is better than that other than commercial egg laying strains.

I intend (God willing) to put a little pressure on them. I will mark early molters, etc. It will be hard to certainly identify who kicks in first in the spring, because they never fully go out of lay. I do expect them to be able to make some improvement, even if it is small improvement.

Bridgette gifted me a trio. That should help me work out more, but I only used one pullet. I also purchased some Sand Hill Catalanas. Apparently they started with birds from Craig Russell, but they look like they have been crossed with commercial Minorcas, but with a little meat on them. They do lack Catalana style and character. I hope to pick a couple pullets to use. They look like they could help me on a couple points. Regardless I am keeping a group as I originally received them, and am only using males from them. I do not have a choice but to invigorate them. I would rather just use what I have, but I will not run them into the ground to do it. I will tighten them back up with selection.

I am guessing that by doing these I will be able to select cockerels that grow out and flesh out early.

They lay large to extra large white to a very light pink eggs, which is typical of the breed. I would eventually like to see consistently uniform egg color. I am considering showing a preference to the light pink eggs. They are attractive in color. Almost white, but not quite.

 

[gjensen]

If for no other reason than your ability to be so darned reasonable, I should just throw up my hands and invest in Games or OEG's, lol....seriously~ broody for sure, fast maturing and who needs 7 lbs of chicken meat? Good grief not me!

I'm honestly not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing or attempting to enlighten but you do, without fail, make me think.

Thank you

M

Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just thoughts and opinions.

Our problem with efficiency is the cost of the feed as much as it is the birds we use. The big eaters with our feed prices is a limiting factor. The factor is not as big for lighter, smaller eaters, that lay well. Just because there is less involved.

 

[bmvf]

Speaking of feed efficiency, has anyone figured out feed cost per egg? How about total feed from day 1 at hatching? I read recently (I forget the magazine name) that a study with Delware's figured $.39 per egg. I'm sure others on here saw the article.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I am still pretty new to poultry I got my first chickens last spring. I started with abt. 2 dozen birds and wanted to raise some for eggs and some for meat for my DH and I. But we have found we don't want to eat the birds we raise. Also I was wondering if someone could help me kind of figure out where to go from here.

Last year a small community of people that have moved into our area like fresh meat and stopped when they saw our birds in the run and asked if they could buy some of our birds. Well we sold them some, and they kept coming back for more every month they told their friends about about our birds and they started coming to buy birds. Then people driving by stop and ask if they can buy some birds. Others came to see our set up and asked to buy birds. Truckers traveling thru stop and ask if they can buy birds...
My thing is I know how many I sold last year and thought I would double the number of birds to have here this year, but now people are asking to buy chicks also. I bought over 100 birds hoping to get some grown out to hatch and keep a supply on hand but they are already getting into my stock and I can see I need probably twice as many or more. I am on a major hwy. And not far off the hwy is my coop and runs. They saw all the chickens and turkey last year and wanted some to start their own flocks or to eat. I have plans to build a
30'x50' building divided into 8 breeding pens and 2 grow out pens for the birds. I just don't know where this is going or how to plan for all this.

All of my birds are large fowl most I got from a couple hatcheries. Two breeds of chickens I got from breeders and would like to breed for other reasons.

I also ordered heritage turkey and bbw and bbb turkey so I will have alot more turkey this year. Last year I sold them all and did not have enough.

Can anyone give me some helpful advice please?

This is only my opinion, but I think you should first decide how many birds of each variety you wish to overwinter as breeders, then refuse to sell them as meat to these drive-by customers. You can do this nicely, ask for their contact information and how many birds they might like next year and you will contact them when you have more in stock...and so forth and so on, but do not sell your breeding stock.

Second, decide what you want your poultry to do. Do you want to raise a few birds for fun or personal egg consumption? or raise and sell a lot of chicks? meat birds? layer hens? If you don't have the manpower or cash reserves or desire to start and maintain a chicken business, don't overextend yourself.

Start small, go slow and go down the middle of the road.....a wise man once said this to us on a different thread here, smile.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[BGMatt]

Speaking of feed efficiency, has anyone figured out feed cost per egg?  How about total feed from day 1 at hatching?  I read recently (I forget the magazine name) that a study with Delware's figured $.39 per egg.  I'm sure others on here saw the article.

Ah the economics of raising poultry. This is highly individual due to feed costs and management style, but with my feed, my management, etc averaged out I figure it costs me around $1 per week, per bird. Obviously the first couple weeks and then at maturity it's slightly less but it makes my math easier when I'm pricing products (in order of preference I sell hatching eggs, chicks, started birds, eating eggs, grown birds, meat).

 

[gjensen]

Speaking of feed efficiency, has anyone figured out feed cost per egg? How about total feed from day 1 at hatching? I read recently (I forget the magazine name) that a study with Delware's figured $.39 per egg. I'm sure others on here saw the article.

Everyone's feed and birds is different. An average sized hen will average 4oz per day. Some of the bigger birds will get closer to 5oz. Then there is waste. For some it is as much as 20%.

And you have to count the feed when they are not laying. Also what it costs to grow them out, and whatever additional maintenance the breeders require.

If the bird consumed 160 lbs in a year, the feed cost .30 per lb., then you are somewhere near .20 per egg for a 200 per year egg layer. Feed is somewhere around 80% of the basic costs of keeping that bird. Add another 5 cents per egg for growing the bird to point of lay. Buying the chick will add a bit. If the feed is a little cheaper, and the birds laid another 20 eggs, it is not as bad.

Don't check my numbers. I just threw that out as an illustration.

 

[gjensen]

You're correct. I guess it's the techniques used that is important. I learned the same methods as part of the judging competitions for FFA to evaluate for future and past egg production, then when I read Hogan's book 15 years later it hit home. I guess I need to go back and read it some more. Anyway, the techniques used and championed by Hogan have served me well over the years picking my breeders (all else being equal the better producing bird goes to the breeding pen, the non-producers leave or go to the show pen). Guess it's more of an accessory than a breeding thing in and of itself. In a shocking development the first priority is the standard for me, everything else is a tool to make sure those birds not only look the part but play it too.

I have found, and not monitoring as closely as I should perhaps since I don't trap nest to prove it, that egg laying is highly inheritable, far more so than conformation points at any rate. Very very few birds are worse producers than their parents, with the vast majority being about the same and a decent percentage being better (at least more than the rule of tens that I strongly believe applies to conformation traits).

I like the Hogan system, and think it is relevant. I especially like it, when it is brought down to the basics. The concepts are solid. When I make the comments I have in mind all that I have read that he said or proponents said. We just know more about performance genetics than what we did back then.

In a well bred strain, the results are pretty reliable. Just being a compilation of genes that makes a good layer a good layer, it is more family influence than individual influence.

I think the Hogan system is a relevant topic here, and should be discussed more. The concepts were helpful for me, and I imagine would be for others. I think everyone should read his book that is interested in this topic.