CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[thedragonlady]

it could be, but I think crooked keels are a genetic defect and roosts are a good thing to blame when you sell defective birds. I have baby's roosting on all kinds of things and I don't remember a crooked keel here for over 20 years.

w.

I have Orps who have very deep keels. My babies have a many forked branch in their large brooder in my greenhouse. At one week of age, they are all roosting up on that forked branch. I have never had a crooked keel. Walt is dead right. I think it is hereditary too.

That roost does serve a purpose in developing strong pec muscles, at a very young age, before the chicks get too heavy to fly well.

 

[EweSheep]

Folks, I found a website that has the OLD pictures of British Welsummers. Such differences from then and today.

http://www.poultryphotos.co.uk/Welsummer_Montage/p1785230_8236639.aspx

 

[fowlman01]

Folks, I found a website that has the OLD pictures of British Welsummers. Such differences from then and today.

http://www.poultryphotos.co.uk/Welsummer_Montage/p1785230_8236639.aspx

I wold love to see the breast color on those.

w.

 

[NYREDS]

I have never seen either breed on champion row. Until judges understand them they will never be able to get on champion row. The cock bird above makes a great overall impression but has low wing carriage,a flat spot in the lower chest and probably is too short in the back. Anyone want to comment on the length of back?

w.

They're too rarely seen to make much of an impact. We see an occasional Welsummer here in the North East but I don't remember the last time I saw a living, breathing Barnevelder.

ETA: On the one or two occasions I recall judging Welsummers [don't remember there being more than 3 in the class] I've pulled out my Standard as I'm not at all familiar with them

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

How long ago did you see these wins? What kind of competition? We can only judge how the bird looks in the picture. I have no idea what it looks like in person. Well I think the wings are too low and most judges would agree...probably all judges. They are low in the picture....that's all I can judge. It is a training example

The female tail of the Wellies is not a well spread tail. See page 164 of the 2010 SOP. It is different than most large fowl females. I cna't see how it would benifit from extra tail feathers.

Number of tail feathers. The SOP does not give tail feather counts. The breeders that add all the extra tail feather do it because they can't get wide feathers. You don't need a lot of feathers to give the tail the full look if you have wide tail feathers. Too many tail feathers gives you a tail that looks like a peacock and it appears unbalanced. The only feathers with counts are the wings. 10 primary, 10 secondary and one axial in the center.

RE judging: Judges are people....half of the physicians in this world were in the bottom half of their class too. People have different way of looking at things and if they don't go by the Standard....well that is when you get these screwy placements. The fact is that many judges here in the US have never seen or have seen very few Wellies in the last ten years. There are judges in the south that have probably never seen one. I go to a lot of shows...all over the US and you don't see them....or the Barnevelders for that matter. Maybe they were more common 20 years ago. As I said earlier. There are a lot of judges that have never been tested on a Wellie and if they don't see them or someone doesn't talk them up, why would they spend the time to learn about them. This is a different time now Bjorn.

Walt

Walt, I totally agree with you on the number of main tail feathers, and I pointed it out to a couple of judges in connection with class winning white Leghorns (in one case BIS!), but was ridiculed for it. In one discussion, it was held that the extra feathers were even desirable so that it was something they would breed for. This was about 10-12 years ago, and these were major AP sanctioned Pacific NW shows.
The standard for Welsummers does not mention anything about tail spread ... and I doubt whether a tail spread like that of a Leghorn would be desirable. The standard picture on page 164 I am certainly familiar with, as I was the one who drew the outline and faxed it to Diane Jacky, which I did after checking out Dutch and British illustrations and making sure the tail angle was correct (in keeping with the steeper angle of the original breed description) according to the adopted APA's SOP and after numerous consultations and input from Horst (Greczmiel). The tail on the hen is not what I call well spread (compare with the picture of the Lakenvelder, the standard for which specifies a "well-spread" tail), as it has not been part of the standard specification. While I personally do not care for a Welsummer hen with a pinched tail (but that's just a personal preference and has no backing in the standard) [as an aside, pinched tails are commonplace in many British breed versions, such as Leghorns, Minorcas, and others], I could not hold that against a hen that is otherwise excellent in all other respects, could I? In our American version, again, we may specify spread of tail, but that needs to be part of the standard. The color of the female in the standard illustration is far from the ideal, and I think that calls for a redo.
By far the best representative of the breed I have seen was a hen shown by Royce, and I had a hen (years ago) that was hatched out of eggs from Lowell Barber (parentage: a hen of the original UK imports x a cockerel I hatched from the same original imports x an incredibly nice cockerel stemming from other eggs brought in from the UK a couple of years prior), as Lowell Barber and I routinely traded eggs and birds over the years. I also traded birds and eggs with Horst (who actually preferred mine over his own) and another gentleman (who wants to be unnamed) in British Columbia who felt that his German type birds were superior. I cannot recall if I traded any with Erhard, but I did a couple of times with the late Ron Nelson in Wisconsin, who was a top notch breeder but did not show.
These are some of my musings on this subject, and my contributions may not do much in the way of clarifying anything. I do, however, care much for the breed and hope that, whatever happens, any decisions and future actions will all be for the best of the Welsummers and their future in this country, and not for the sole purpose of pushing any personal agenda. There is no need to recreate the breed beyond what has already happened by our putting together a standard that seems to be somewhat eclectic in picking some of this and some of that.
Regards,
Bjorn

 

[newmanmichael]

Here's a few of my birds. A critique of good/bad would be appreciated.




The rooster looks rough. I put him out on pasture and the peacock ran him around for several days. His wings are too low but I like his tail angle, straight back and rounded chest, although it could be fuller.



Here's a 2nd photo of the same rooster.


Front Chest view:

 

[Happy Chooks]

michael - I'm far from an expert, but I like the straight back in your hens. The 2nd hen has a more rounded breast. Nice, even body coloring too. Nice looking rooster as well - love his yellow legs and his back looks long to my eye. His wing set is a bit low. How much red mottling does he have in his breast/thighs? He looks pretty dark, but the SOP doesn't state how much red mottling you should have, though I've heard no more than 20% red. (my rooster is dark as well)

 

[newmanmichael]

michael - I'm far from an expert, but I like the straight back in your hens. The 2nd hen has a more rounded breast. Nice, even body coloring too. Nice looking rooster as well - love his yellow legs and his back looks long to my eye. His wing set is a bit low. How much red mottling does he have in his breast/thighs? He looks pretty dark, but the SOP doesn't state how much red mottling you should have, though I've heard no more than 20% red. (my rooster is dark as well)

Thanks! I just added a photo on his chest.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Michael, I like that cock bird (perhaps a bit flat chested, but otherwise looks very, very nice). His back line is especially good in my opinion, and I think his colors are exceptionally good (judging by this picture), and I can see he has nice mottling on his breast. We decided NOT to go with the German/Danish standard for the breast coloring of the males (light grey, then brown, then a black "droplet" at the tip of each feather), so there is adequate mottling on him (and you will certainly find more that is hidden under the black). I also like some things about the hens (especially their nice back line, which does not slope too much, and their even, warm rusty-red color). From experience, I know that some judges (as evidenced from Pacific NW shows) want more of a tail spread, but I think their tails look fine (a higher tail set might be nice, though). Depending on their age, a fuller breast might be nice, but if they are young pullets, that will probably be taken care of as they "fill in" in the course of the year. I think you have some nice birds.

 

[EweSheep]

michael - I'm far from an expert, but I like the straight back in your hens. The 2nd hen has a more rounded breast. Nice, even body coloring too. Nice looking rooster as well - love his yellow legs and his back looks long to my eye. His wing set is a bit low. How much red mottling does he have in his breast/thighs? He looks pretty dark, but the SOP doesn't state how much red mottling you should have, though I've heard no more than 20% red. (my rooster is dark as well)

I agree with above statement!

I see the hen's earlobes have some pale pinkish/white bloom and pale legs. She is very pleasant to look at all around. The rooster has some really nice YELLOW legs! I agree with you on the wing setting. The chest is a bit flat but I am sure with all that running around it might have made him gaunt. Once he settles down, eating well, he might fill out that "flatness" bottom half of his chest. His topline, either the feather is out of place but it looks like to me its "broken" from the end like he is developing a cushion. If it is the feather being broken, then he has a nice topline! I like the length of it.
,
I finished reading Joseph Batty's book and it is not that much different than our American SOP. But he has written some details for their British Welsummers and a few injunctions about the USA Welsummers. The British like their cocks to have no more than 40% marbling (mottling)...no black penciling showing on neck feathers You don't want a totally black chest like a Black Red OEG nor overly chestnut chest that we all remember Morrow's old Welsummer had (now long eliminated from the breeding program) with his high degree of brown feathers on his chest. Nor should it have any spangling (teardrops or lacing) or penciling on the breast area either.

Someone mentioned about the black areas of roos and hens that it should not be "purplish" but beetle green sheen. All the standard mentioned that the wing bar is black with green sheen. I do know the roosters' tails were green sheen and the hens should be black (probably matte black?) I can not remember which black feathered breed had purplish sheen when the green sheen was a fault. Javas?

Walt, I wished those old photos have color on it too! It would have been wonderful!