German New Hampshire

[Ifish]

It does not help to compare them to birds you have known. The comparison is too each other. I can see that there is some variability within your flock. The type is not uniform. Neither is size etc.

All you need is a couple pens. It is not required to "line them all up" though it would be helpful. A couple pens, and compare one to the other, making notes on the particulars. One stays, and the other does not, so to speak. If you wanted, once you were down to 50%, go again.

I would keep two cockerels and four pullets from this batch.

I understand that the comparison needs to be made to each other. I was just trying to communicate that they are broad and deep birds. I'm also trying to understand what the SOP is calling for when I look at the flock.

They look more uniform in size than the pics show, though there are small differences. "Type" was not the word I should have used.

 

[gjensen]

I understand that the comparison needs to be made to each other. I was just trying to communicate that they are broad and deep birds. I'm also trying to understand what the SOP is calling for when I look at the flock.

They look more uniform in size than the pics show, though there are small differences. "Type" was not the word I should have used.

In time, they will look much more variable to you. They are relatively uniform. Relative to other lines that we could compare them
to. I see the variability though, and a lot of it. These are some birds that I am personally familiar with. A bird from my own is the sire.

What I was trying to do was start to help you see "what the SOP is calling for". You have it figured out though. Or you will in time.

 

[Ifish]

Your knowledge and guidance is very much appreciated.

I have 2 cages. Sometime this weekend the daughter and I will catch them, weigh them, and take a good look at them. I'll band them at that time to have a better idea of who is who.

I'll get some pics of each at that time.

It's going to take some time for me to get a visual understanding of what the SOP is calling for and put it into practice. I was hoping for some poultry shows this year, as I felt that would have been a good place to learn.

 

[gjensen]

Your knowledge and guidance is very much appreciated.

I have 2 cages. Sometime this weekend the daughter and I will catch them, weigh them, and take a good look at them. I'll band them at that time to have a better idea of who is who.

I'll get some pics of each at that time.

It's going to take some time for me to get a visual understanding of what the SOP is calling for and put it into practice. I was hoping for some poultry shows this year, as I felt that would have been a good place to learn.

I think the poultry shows are good for getting it in general. Specifically, concerning this breed, there seams to be a lack of consensus. That is a tip. Not a warning. More good will come of it, but every interpretation is not correct. The truth is not multiform.

The biggest thing that helped me understand the type of a NH was to have an idea what made a NH a NH before I had NHs. Playing around, I noticed a tendency for the shorter and wider birds, in a given population, having better early weights coupled with a reasonable carcass. Long, tall frames take time to establish. As a result, they fill out later. In addition to the breeds reputation for quick feathering, you have the potential for a bird that developed quickly. Not especially long or tall. Fast feathering, and fast growing. A bird that filled out their frame early, and had a steep growth curve (rather than flat).

When they came on the scene, they took over for a time. They became very popular world wide. They laid as well as the Reds, but came into lay 4-8wks earlier. They had a better carcass at younger ages than the Rocks. They developed a better carcass sooner than any of the dual purpose breeds. Much of that was selection on these points, but that selection did produce a bird that had medium length and height, that was also broad and deep.

The profile of a NH should show a deep bird. A deep keel, and a well rounded breast on well developed thighs. Good thick shanks on well centered and widely spaced legs. Not especially long, but not short either. Looked at from above, they should have a wide skull, and wide shoulders. The width should carry all the way through to the tail.

Another point that helps me interpret the language of the SOP is to compare that word choices to the descriptions of other birds. Especially birds that have a more established identity. Reds, Rocks, and Leghorns are good references, but stay within your class when comparing. I am almost saying that the SOP does interpret the SOP, but not without fault.

 

[Ifish]

The weather today was cold and rainy so I wasn't able to get pics or put them in cages to compare them. We did however weigh and band the birds. Handled them a good bit to feel the body structure and just get a good look at them. On a nice day this week I'll get them into cages and get some good pics.

Of the 7 cockerels @ 21weeks:

3 weighed 7.4 lbs
2 weighed 7 lbs
1 weighed 6.6 lbs
1 weighed 8.4 lbs

The heaviest bird was kinda shocking. He is a little shorter and wider than the others, and did not expect him to be so heavy. When feeling him, he has the most developed breasts of the bunch, and a very wide back all the way to the tail. His comb and wing carriage is also nice compared to the others. Has the thickest shanks.

The lightest bird is also the most narrow of the bunch. His comb is also flopping over toward the back. I feel he will certainly be a cull.

The rest are pretty close and I will get some good pics, and measurements before making a decision on them. Of those cockerels, I have picked out 2 of them that I think could be culled do to things that stand out to me.


The 9 pullets weigh 4.2-5lbs. Some appear to be getting close to laying.

Pelvic bones are flexible and not pointed. 2 of the pullets could fit two fingers between, 3-1.5 fingers, and 5-1 finger. I forgot to measure from the keel bone to the pelvic bones and will do that this week when I check them again.

A couple of the pullets were noticeably wider down the back and deeper in build. They were the heavier birds and 2 finger pelvic bones.


Under color on all of the birds seems right. Eye, beak, leg color seems fine. Ticking on the pullet neck hackles varies a lot between birds as does the tail black. I think a picture of a tail from a good pullet could help me visualize better what I'm looking for. There may not be anything wrong with mine, I just do not understand what the SOP is calling for.

All in all it was a lot of fun to be out there with my daughter, catching and holding the birds. It's been a while since I've caught any for weighing. It's amazing what you can learn just by weighing and putting your hands on the birds. It was an enjoyable time and there was no aggressiveness shown by the cockerels. Looking forward to it this coming week.

 

[gjensen]

The weather today was cold and rainy so I wasn't able to get pics or put them in cages to compare them. We did however weigh and band the birds. Handled them a good bit to feel the body structure and just get a good look at them. On a nice day this week I'll get them into cages and get some good pics.

Of the 7 cockerels @ 21weeks:

3 weighed 7.4 lbs
2 weighed 7 lbs
1 weighed 6.6 lbs
1 weighed 8.4 lbs

The heaviest bird was kinda shocking. He is a little shorter and wider than the others, and did not expect him to be so heavy. When feeling him, he has the most developed breasts of the bunch, and a very wide back all the way to the tail. His comb and wing carriage is also nice compared to the others. Has the thickest shanks.

The lightest bird is also the most narrow of the bunch. His comb is also flopping over toward the back. I feel he will certainly be a cull.

The rest are pretty close and I will get some good pics, and measurements before making a decision on them. Of those cockerels, I have picked out 2 of them that I think could be culled do to things that stand out to me.


The 9 pullets weigh 4.2-5lbs. Some appear to be getting close to laying.

Pelvic bones are flexible and not pointed. 2 of the pullets could fit two fingers between, 3-1.5 fingers, and 5-1 finger. I forgot to measure from the keel bone to the pelvic bones and will do that this week when I check them again.

A couple of the pullets were noticeably wider down the back and deeper in build. They were the heavier birds and 2 finger pelvic bones.


Under color on all of the birds seems right. Eye, beak, leg color seems fine. Ticking on the pullet neck hackles varies a lot between birds as does the tail black. I think a picture of a tail from a good pullet could help me visualize better what I'm looking for. There may not be anything wrong with mine, I just do not understand what the SOP is calling for.

All in all it was a lot of fun to be out there with my daughter, catching and holding the birds. It's been a while since I've caught any for weighing. It's amazing what you can learn just by weighing and putting your hands on the birds. It was an enjoyable time and there was no aggressiveness shown by the cockerels. Looking forward to it this coming week.

The lightest cockerel with the comb flopping over is certainly a cull. Combs are highly heritable, and it is not difficult to allow combs to become a problem. These, generally, have pretty good combs. No need to lose a strength.

All of the weights are good. The largest birds will be over Standard weight by a good bit. Too much, but that will correct itself if you select properly. The current is pulling the size down. Select for early maturity (@ 12-14wks), and focus on type. The size will moderate. It is more of a concern to lose it. Then you are fighting against the current to regain it. The current is running in two directions at the same time, always drifting towards mediocrity. Bantams trend larger without pressure on our part, and large fowl trend smaller if we allow them.

Handling the birds as you describe is important. Looks can be deceiving. We "prove" them in our hands and on the scales.

It is hard to get a nicely rounded breast consistently. This and length (and depth) of keel is a point that needs improvement. Learn to see it, and emphasize it early, and your birds will be better for it later.

The pullets may lay later on you than the will in the future. The decreasing daylight can delay them. Hopefully they will lay before it gets especially late and cold.
The goal is (for me), usually, is to get them laying and the egg size up before my hens start to molt. By Oct. 1, I want them to have been laying for 4-6wks.

The pullets/hens tend to have too small of a comb to me. I like to see larger thicker combs on the hens. For the combs to lean to one side in the rear. It is related to hormone levels etc. Aesthetically, they appear more maternal. I like medium large combs on the males. Large really, but not excessively large.

A NH female's capacity is in their width and depth. Not as much in their length. Keep that in mind. Once you get a feel for when yours come into lay, establish a time to check for pelvic spread.

It is important that the females have width and depth to. In a pair, they are 50% of the contribution. You only need 4 to start with.

These birds tend to have good heads. Hold on to them. A good head is where our eye is drawn. A poor head on an otherwise good bird is deficient. Do not lose what you have while you work on one or two traits is the goal.

Watch for smut in the under color.

Get a picture of the males and female's tails. Also spread wings.

Much of breeding this color is balancing the black. Not too much, enough, and in the right places. Certain points are indicators, and indicators of tendencies. Sometimes a little more is helpful to balance not enough etc.

 

[cpartist]

It sounds like you are enjoying your NHs Robert, and are doing a good job evaluating them. I like the weights at the 5 month mark. George's advice and mentoring is priceless.

I have two groups of younger birds I am still evaluating, but so far have kept these two pullets. They are 26 weeks and are not laying yet. The cockerel from George really helped put some front end on them.

 

[Ifish]

I went out this morning to get a few pics of tails and wings before heading out. I got pics of two cockerel wings and two pullet tails. Didn't have enough time to get more this morning. I will get more and better pics this week.

 

[Ifish]

It sounds like you are enjoying your NHs Robert, and are doing a good job evaluating them. I like the weights at the 5 month mark. George's advice and mentoring is priceless.

I have two groups of younger birds I am still evaluating, but so far have kept these two pullets. They are 26 weeks and are not laying yet. The cockerel from George really helped put some front end on them.

They are a couple of beauties.

We are enjoying the NH's very much. This has been a wonderful process and hobby for my daughter and I. They are also very pleasing to just sit and watch.

I'm confident that we will find some good birds in this flock for breeding, and hopefully showing next year.

 

[Ifish]

The lightest cockerel with the comb flopping over is certainly a cull. Combs are highly heritable, and it is not difficult to allow combs to become a problem. These, generally, have pretty good combs. No need to lose a strength.

All of the weights are good. The largest birds will be over Standard weight by a good bit. Too much, but that will correct itself if you select properly. The current is pulling the size down. Select for early maturity (@ 12-14wks), and focus on type. The size will moderate. It is more of a concern to lose it. Then you are fighting against the current to regain it. The current is running in two directions at the same time, always drifting towards mediocrity. Bantams trend larger without pressure on our part, and large fowl trend smaller if we allow them.

Handling the birds as you describe is important. Looks can be deceiving. We "prove" them in our hands and on the scales.

It is hard to get a nicely rounded breast consistently. This and length (and depth) of keel is a point that needs improvement. Learn to see it, and emphasize it early, and your birds will be better for it later.

The pullets may lay later on you than the will in the future. The decreasing daylight can delay them. Hopefully they will lay before it gets especially late and cold.
The goal is (for me), usually, is to get them laying and the egg size up before my hens start to molt. By Oct. 1, I want them to have been laying for 4-6wks.

The pullets/hens tend to have too small of a comb to me. I like to see larger thicker combs on the hens. For the combs to lean to one side in the rear. It is related to hormone levels etc. Aesthetically, they appear more maternal. I like medium large combs on the males. Large really, but not excessively large.

A NH female's capacity is in their width and depth. Not as much in their length. Keep that in mind. Once you get a feel for when yours come into lay, establish a time to check for pelvic spread.

It is important that the females have width and depth to. In a pair, they are 50% of the contribution. You only need 4 to start with.

These birds tend to have good heads. Hold on to them. A good head is where our eye is drawn. A poor head on an otherwise good bird is deficient. Do not lose what you have while you work on one or two traits is the goal.

Watch for smut in the under color.

Get a picture of the males and female's tails. Also spread wings.

Much of breeding this color is balancing the black. Not too much, enough, and in the right places. Certain points are indicators, and indicators of tendencies. Sometimes a little more is helpful to balance not enough etc.

Thanks again!

Are there Specific spots on the birds to watch more closely for smut in the under color? Or is it pretty random?