OVER THE COUNTER MEDICATIONS (OTC) IMPACTED BY NEW FDA PRESCRIPTION REQUIREMENTS INITIATIVE

[EdenCamp]

There isn't any discussion about banning off label use in veterinary medicine is there? I sure hope not, that would be a huge crisis.

Also from what I have read, there are only a limited number of "approved for poultry" OTC antibiotics due to the worries about resistance and their eventual ineffectiveness treating human illnesses. Personally if I have a couple of extra antibiotic capsules left over from one of my dogs or myself I will likely save them for individual chicken emergencies in the event I can't get a hold of a script fast enough. One pill won't treat a flock but it would go a long way for a single bird.

Also from what I understand once the expiration date has been reached antibiotics may be past their "peak performance" but the vast majority don't just stop working (unless it is a liquid suspension or some such thing). The antibiotics slowly lose effectiveness over time so if it expired 1 year before it may still be 90%+ effective, plus I would bet the expiration dates are very very conservative estimates. 30 years ago there were a couple that actually became toxic when they got old but I read those were taken off the market so it no longer applies.

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional I just look up a lot of this stuff and am sharing the info in case others want to research these matters on their own.

What I know is there are a number of vet conferences coming up where this incentive will be a prime topic. I believe I have the one in FL Jan being participated in by a major breeder that lives in the area. Hoping to get them speaking at the conf. or at least bringing up concerns on the floor. There is another in Vegas in Feb still working on getting that one covered.

I know there will be a great deal of scrutiny and oversight, at least initially, on vet practices so getting cooperation from vets may be an issue. Can't blame them for protecting their licenses.

I know when I had a necropsy done and 3 types of worms I had no clue were an issue in my flock were found - the State Vet where I had this done recommended Fenben and Safe-guard Goat wormer (which dosen't treat tapes) and had never heard of Valbazen which does. He also advocated Oregano use for general health. Holistics are not without merit - but documentation from reliable sources is harder to come by - and the quacks abound (Don't get me started on DE as a wormer again),

As far as expiration dates, there is supposed to have been a confidential study done by the military to find out what the REAL shelf life of medications are. There was a nurse who leaked some of the info found - so yes, part of expiration dates is a gimmick to move more product. Safe to assume some do break down faster than others and the possibility of becoming dangerous or at least harmful could be present. Read labels. Call or write manufacturers. They have answers.

I did include a link for the FDA's list of drugs affected, dunno if you've had time to look through it all. I was given access to the RX data base commonly used for vet meds - it contains some 6,000 products along with listing species for authorized use. So I have the ability to dig through for products, search by compound, search by species etc on it. And of course I started with the most commonly used for poultry meds I'm aware of - which is where my table came from listing on and off label species for those meds. So when I say the manufacturers have no idea of how their previously OTC were really being used or how extensively, the guy relating this to me heard it directly out of the mouths of the CEOs/Presidents themselves. And yes, I've also written to the FDA and AG Depts.

For those that go the all natural route. Great. Lot to be said for that. I started out that way myself. Then I educated myself. There really is no getting around the need for wormers. Preventatives will only go so far. Poultry have worms. 9 varieties of cocci - they are everywhere, pretty much no getting away from it. When, not if, when a virus, bacteria or parasite hits your flock it becomes a case of treat quickly and appropriately or they die (at least a great percentage). Breeding for resistance with an estimated 95% of backyard flocks have MS/MG/CRD or something along those lines (again not here to argue the exact %) it's prevelant, breeding for resistance is not going to save someones beloved pet struggling with it. Bio-security goes a long way towards keeping the nasteys away but few really fully practice it. Even major hatcheries take the breed for resistance approach and feel a disservice to customers were they to send out "clean" birds. But again, I'm not here to say any one approach is the answer for all. Animal husbandry and management is about making those choices for yourself. Informed is always a good thing tho.

So as far as who I am, I'm just another hobbiest/breeder wanting the best care for my animals/birds with the same bugetary constrictions. concerns and vet access/training issues as most of the rest of you. The difference is research and designing systems is what I did for a living, govt compliance and regulatory oversight are familiar territory. And too, I've self vetted multiple species as a breeder for 25 years. My concern is our animals will suffer with the gap between what has been and what needs to be because of this far reaching change. There's no question there has been abuse with ready access to vet OTCs or damage done with incorrect information tossed around on the internet by the well intentioned but misinformed. Getting from one point to the other, facilitating the transition with the least harm to our pets and livestock is what I am trying to help with here. I don't have all the answers, heck, I'm sure I don't even know all the questions! But channeling information as a bridge is what I can do and is what I am trying to accomplish.

 

[JanetMarie]

For the first time in keeping chickens the past 8 years I had to put one on antibiotics, but would rather have taken her to a vet. than researching which antibiotic and how much to give myself. The vet I did have that saw chickens retired, and I haven't found another. I suppose vaccinating, and giving flea and tick medications to cats and dogs is an easier living.

I do things organically, so giving an antibiotic is absolutely a last resort.

 

[Blooie]

And I am as sure as I can be that someday I'll face some kind of emergency situation with my flock and will very likely wish I had some of those things on hand. But the issue for me is not knowing who the enemy is - what I'm actually fighting so I can make the best and safest choices for my chickens and my family. I ain't always the brightest crayon in the box, and looking at my birds then looking at a symptom chart to choose what might be the problem just doesn't reassure me much about the accuracy of my choices. I would far rather go to a professional and say, "This is what she's doing, this is when it started, and this is her environment and diet." and let him/her make the call. But that's in a perfect world, and as backyard chicken owners most of us don't have that option. So I just blindly hope that day never comes, which is a pretty lame way to be responsible for the lives and well-being of other critters.

I am so glad that you are willing and able to do this research. Do you have any idea how valuable that is? So you just keep channeling away, with my respect and gratitude, and I'll follow along as I can.

 

[EdenCamp]

Yep, thanks. The trouble is lack of "experts" or avian training. In my entire state there are 8, 8 avian vets. The closest 100 miles from me. I can't even get swab or blood testing done close by by a vet. Expired birds have to be driven or shipped for a necropsy. So I really have no choice but to educate and treat myself - and work to establish a relationship with a vet closer by that will work with me. Not the first time I've had to train my vet! So getting the manufacturers and vets up to speed is something that there just wasn't incentive for before. Now the game has changed. We need them to step up and step into the void created. When you are trying to save Henretta from death - you need to be able to go to a vet that is up to speed to do so. They need the knowledge to treat and best medications approved available to use.

Now I will say this, makes a big difference the point and type of flock one has. Raising meat birds is a quick in and out. Raising egg layers for personal use or selling eggs another. Usually, yes, you absolutely want to go as natural as possible with those. It's the whole point of raising your own. Much as you hate to lose a favorite, small backyard flocks that most people have if you have to start over it's not catastrophic. You spend $3-4 per chick and lose 5 months growing them out to laying age again or bite the bullet and spend $5 - $25 for a laying age bird.

Rare breeds, exoctics, show birds another story entirely. You don't just run down to the local farm store and plop a few dollars down. There are breeders that have worked on projects for a decade that can be wiped out to ground zero in no time. Others that have developed their own line that have invested years and uncounted (or pass out from shock) thousands to do so. Sure, I eat a cockerel or cull on occasion. Ever have a pretty expensive omlet once in awhile. But rather than start from ground zero it makes more sense with my flocks to be proactive and on top of any illness when encountered.

 

[shortgrass]

True, I can see where for a person who has a small flock for pet/egg/meat, it could cause frustration trying to find assistance.

I'm blessed with not just one, but 3 great vets that not only specialize in cattle, but one is very good with birds. If I need necropsies irctests, CSU is not too far away, so if I were to need something, I can call and get it pretty quick.

But I'm an organic producer, so not only is most of it not even ALLOWED, I will kill off generations worth of microbes in our soil.

Yep lol, my dad is a retired Agronomy professor, and I majored in microbiology; there is no way I would ever even get away with it, knowing g the ins and outs of the system like my dad does, its a wonder why the FDA waited this long...

I do, however, applaud sites like these for helping out new owners or individuals putting their brains together to find a solution when there doesn't seem to be one in sight. Maybe this will be a good pysh for education. Overuse of antibiotics, wormers, etc; leading to resistance and need for stronger and more, when the whole cycle can be stopped and prevented from soil level UP.


The DH pegged it when he said "now your sister can't go get her horse pills", ... I wonder if misuse from humans not just overusing it on animals, but using it on THEMSELVES that has something to do with this?

 

[casportpony]

This topic is fascinating and I thank you, @EdenCamp for starting this discussion. I think one of the questions that needs to be asked is why vets are not being trained in avian medicine in vet school? I worked in 3 different veterinarians' offices over the years as an animal health technician and the dumbfounded look on any of the three vets' faces when someone would call in with a sick parrot or other bird was borderline silly. I remember one vet hanging up the phone, looking up at the sky and asking, "Why, WHY do people think they have to have birds? I don't know anything about birds!" This is the same man who would go out at 2 am in a snowstorm and deliver a colt or spend an afternoon pregnancy testing cows. It makes as much sense as a human physician being trained to treat only people of a certain ethnicity - just plain stupid. So we are left to our own devices and we don't even know what we are treating half the time because there are no vets out there qualified to tell us what we are fighting.

I am personally dead set against using a bunch of medications on my birds. After all, part of the reason I have them is so that I know what's going into my families' mouths from the get-go. But I have had issues with mites, which had to be treated, and I had to resort to chemicals to get the job done. I didn't like it, but for the comfort and health of my birds and family it had to be done. I'm also smart enough to know my limits and I am not an avian diagnostician. The only poultry products you will find here are Save-A-Chic Probiotics, packets of electrolytes, a bottle of Poly-vi-sol without iron, a bottle of Vet Rx, and Castor Oil. If what's going on here is more serious than those things can handle, then I may need to rethink things, but so far I haven't had to resort to any kind of other treatments. Like @shortgrass I see all the time on here folks bombarding their birds with drug after drug and still not getting a handle on the sickness or healing the injury and it makes me sad that these people can't just pick up a phone and ask a vet to look at the bird.

I guess the bottom line is that if you use these products, it might be a good idea to stock up before the shortages happen. For those like me, who don't rely on them, nothing really changes. For every study that someone can point to and say, "This proves it is true.", there's an opposing study someone else can find and say, "See, this proves you're wrong." I will be following this thread with great interest, and again I thank you for bringing it to our attention.

Sad, but true... A huge part of the reason that they don't impove is that don't have access to decent drugs that they can give orally or by injection, or they use them incorrectly, like when they try treating something like E.coli, pseudomonas or something similar with Tylan.

-Kathy

 

[Sonya9]

I would far rather go to a professional and say, "This is what she's doing, this is when it started, and this is her environment and diet." and let him/her make the call. But that's in a perfect world, and as backyard chicken owners most of us don't have that option. So I just blindly hope that day never comes, which is a pretty lame way to be responsible for the lives and well-being of other critters.

I don't treat the "whole flock" for vague illnesses (we do have Marek's but that doesn't respond to antibiotics, I have tried antivirals on specific birds though).


But in the event of a sudden emergency, such as a dog/predator mauling with puncture wounds, being able to provide antibiotics to prevent a serious infection is IMO vital, and it can't wait a couple of days until the vet opens on Monday. My birds are pets (only have one producing eggs at the moment) so I am not worried about keeping them "organic", but if one is severely injured I want to give them the best chance for recovery.

 

[casportpony]

Those looking for an avian vet can look here:

• http://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
• http://www.majesticwaterfowl.org/vetfinder.htm

-Kathy

 

[Ifish]

Seems to be more "Do as we say, not as we do" "We know better than you" mentality from our overlords.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: We have other options... It's pretty easy to find antibiotics, like FishMox for fish and compound our own. Let me know if you want to learn how.

-Kathy