Pine and Cedar shavings are dangerous

[tmfineg]

We just built a new chicken coop and put a thick layer of pine shavings on the floor. Our rooster began to wheeze soon thereafter. This went on for almost 2 months. A friend of mine is an anesthesiolgist. He suggested it was an allergin. The only thing I could think of was the shavings. We have removed them and he is getting better. Now I read this. I guess pine is out!!

 

[mandelyn]

I use pine shavings for the adults, no issues. Baby ducks get old towels with their water over wire, baby chicks get sand. Super easy to sift sand in the brooder compared to mucking out the whole mess of shavings.

Cedar is terrible for birds, since fowl are very sensitive to air quality. But it's just as bad for rodents and young animals.

With how sensitive birds are, anything dusty is bad. Old dusty hay is bad, unsifted/untreated construction sand is bad with how dusty it can get. You want the least dusty thing you can get, such as flake pine shavings instead of the dustier fine type.

Ammonia build-up in a poor ventilated coop will kill them too, any kind of bad air can harm them, whether it's dust or something else. The more ventilation you have in your coop, the better. Just remember drafts are harmful too.

 

[rikithemonk]

I think that its like anything else. It depends on how the animal is kept and the common sense of the owner. You have to remember that people don't think. They bury an animal neck deep in ceder shavings for weeks and they store that animal in a glass aquarium with very low airflow. Of course the animal will get sick. Imagine the fumes. Have you smelled ceder? However, If you have ceder in reasonable amounts in the open chicken run you will most likely be fine. Like everything else in life, it all comes down to common sense. Ceder has odors, gasses and oils. I see no problem using Ceder in an open out door environment in reasonable quantities. If you intend to keep your chickens in an enclosed coop filled with shavings, then cedar is a poor choice.

 

[SleepyOwl]

From the book City Chicks "In a confined space like a brooder, using pine or cedar bedding will give your young babies phenol exposure that can result in respiratory problems later." They go on to say that pine is probably fine for adults, and they use some in their coops, but think there have been problems with some batches of chicks that they have raised, so they no longer use it.

I don't remember if it was that book or another, but it said that the authors used pine shavings, not worrying about it, until they almost lost a batch of chicks who were having sever respitory issues. They switched out the pine for something else, and they got better right away.

Just not worth the risk to me. I like the sand idea in the brooder!

 

[speckledhen]

Sleepy Owl, have you ever had chickens or are you just going by what someone said in a book? Just wondering. No one using good quality dry pine shavings should ever have a problem.


If you don't ventilate the area properly, you will have issues with ANYTHING, including aspen and hay, but it's not the material so much as the moisture held within it and the resulting ammonia. Trust me, folks have been using pine shavings for many, many years. They are fine! If you choose to go with aspen, IF you can find it in sufficient quantities, you will spend way more $$$ than you need to, but it's your money.

 

[Beekissed]

Yep, I agree, but even with ventilation, chicks sleep with their nose in their bedding (or very close anyway). Older birds usually sleep at least a foot away from the floor, if not several.

Not to mention the chicks have new, delicate little lungs.

I probably won't use aspen either, but even if I do, it will be 3x as much money probably only one or two times. My plan is to use paper towels for the first several days (or until it just isn't working anymore), and then I think I am going to try sand until they move outside. They will be in the house, so I don't have to worry about the sand being cold. But, we all know how plans go. lol
It helps that I don't plan to make this a regular occurance. I live in town, so it isn't like I get to hatch out several babies every year. I will probably only get 6-8 babies every few years. (Of course, that is another "plan" that might change.

)

I tend to over research things. I learn so many different ideas, and then can't make a decision. (Like what breeds I want to get!)
Ok, now I am just babbling.

I'd much rather see people who research and plan well before they ever get an animal also...it's important to know what you are getting into, what you will need to be successful and how you want to manage your flock.

The problems start at the point at the highlighted text. When it is all said and done on this Earth, you will only know something if you try it for yourself. Books are a great starting point but they aren't the definitive source of all things known or experienced...they too are merely the author's experience or info from a few very controlled studies.

Fortunately~or unfortunately, according to your personality~our backyard is not a controlled situation and has so many variables as to render it useless as a lab...but experiment we must. If we want to find what works in our own little backyard, we have to try things....yes...we may even want to try things that may~ in maybe 1% of birds~ cause respiratory problems.

So far on this forum I've gleaned that we cannot use:

Pine shavings~toxic
Cedar shavings~also toxic
Hay or straw~impacts crops and also fatal...imagine that.
Paper towels~chicks eat them and get...Oh...look, it's "impacted crops" again.
Sand~chicks eat it, fill up on it and then can't eat their food and die of starvation


If I were to believe everything I read in books, mag articles and on this forum, I would be trying to raise my birds suspended in the air so they don't come in contact with anything that could harm them and I'd still be obsessing over the quality of the air in which they were suspended!

Having said all that, I've used pine shavings with absolutely no ill effects and used cedar shavings in small amounts in a very well-ventilated and large chicken house and got a few birds that started wheezing. Those birds were rehomed and the rest of the flock did very well...but I did not repeat the cedar shavings experiment.

Straw or hay never were eaten by any flock I've ever had(maybe penned birds do this? Mine free range, so their crops are already full of grass and such).

Never used paper towels because I have always used pine shavings....never a chick or bird lost all these many years.

Sand? Never tried it.

 

[rikithemonk]

Sorry to cause such an uproar! lol I am just passing along info that I've learned from animal professionals. I don't think all the data is out there as to how harmful pine is for animals and people will continue to use it as it's a cheap form of bedding. I for one will never use it as what I've heard about it isn't worth the risk of losing my chicks/hens or making them not feel well.

There is no uproar. All information has value. I appreciate you sharing what you learned. One day this thread may save someone who is loosing their chicks. That's never a bad thing.

Without knowledge common sense is helpless. Its trivia that gives common sense the tools to function.

Riki

 

[Beekissed]

After being on this forum for awhile, I've come to see that folks who like to fuss over their birds will do so and those who don't like to fuss over things generally just do not. No amount of one crowd telling the other their way is the best way will conduce either to change because that is just the way they LIKE to be. I don't know that either persuasion will ever understand the other side of the coin. That's just the way folks are!

I guess there would be nothing to talk about if everyone did things the same, would there?

 

[SleepyOwl]

...The real knowledge with poultry is experience. So while the "I have always done it that way so it must be ok," as it pertains to poultry, it is the truth, for if you do something wrong for very long, you will quickly find out and you won't be doing it that way again. ...

I agree that experience is the best way to learn. I do not agree that if you do something wrong, you will always quickly find out it is wrong. I can give you so many examples, but here are a couple.
Is it safe to give your young toddler whole grapes? Why not? They will probably end up being just fine if we give them whole grapes. Most kids would be just fine. You can meet 20 familys who all fed their children whole grapes, and they will tell you "go ahead, I have always done it and it has never been an issue." Then you hear about a a few children choking and dying on grapes. What do you do? I know that is easier to explain why it is bad, but you still get the idea.

Than, there is my mom. We ate very bad, unhealthy food, all were formula fed, ect. She says "well, you all turned out ok, right?" Well, no we didn't. Two out of three of us have health issues, me with the most (I am the oldest.) Our youngest sister is only 24, so she might just end up with stuff too. Something can slowly creep up. Sure, eating that way didn't kill us outright, but it very well might have kept our bodies from growing just the way they should, and now we are paying for it.


This is not in argument wether or not you should use pine, only to show why I do not go along with "I have always done it that way, so it must be ok".

 

[Steeldeal]

Hello,

I'm new to raising chickens, and I'm new to the forum. I hope that this post finds everyone well I don't wish to insight any angry mobs to hunt me down for posting when I'm new to chickens anyway.

The reason I'm posting is because I often see this argument about cedar all over the internet and being new to this forum this is the latest post that discusses it so I thought I would add my comments here.

What amazes me is that no one has ever thought to consider there are multiple kinds of cedar. Not all cedar is alike. I actually work for a company that uses cedar oils in a concentrate form to sell as pest control. It's highly effective and we have customers world wide.

Some even use it in their chicken coops.

Consider the various potential kinds of cedar are as sparse as a forest when you see all the different trees. Let's go over the two different types most popular in the US and their potential side effects that can affect people, pets, and animals of all types:

Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata) - side effects include: mild irritant, sensitizer, asthma, nervous system effects, Nasopharyngeal carcinoma (rare)

Western Red Cedar is a very nasty Cedar tree. It can cause problems for anyone and animals. It is used in construction for shingles and siding. It doesn't affect everyone this way and as such some people find it to be fine. It can also have no affect with some animals, however younger or less healthy animals are most susceptible to any issues, and even some healthy animals could potentially have the issues above.

Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana) - side effects include: mild irritant. This is all. And it doesn't even affect everyone or every animal, but the most severe issues would be a mild irritant. In fact in some cases where a person or animal may be allergic to the actual wood or chips in the case of pollen from that source, this is where a person could use a product like the product the company I work for sells (not mentioning because that's not the purpose of this post) Because it is cedar oils, and not the wood, there is no pollens. Even people and animals allergic to cedar, have no issues with the cedar oils.

Now granted some people also talk about not having a ventilated coop. This could cause distress. I've applied the cedar product even to a house through a fogger so thick that it took my breath away. So it is very possible that having to much of a build up of the aroma can make it feel as though it's hard to breath. And naturally you wouldn't want your babies to have any distress, so make sure you ventilate properly. In fact just being a coop alone has an issue of a high humidity level. You have animals, water, food, defecating, urinating. That coop is going to get humid just from the moisture from animals. So you should already have a sufficient level of ventilation or your coop will be rotting from the inside out.

Just to finish off the post. There are about a dozen different types of cedar. The most toxic are the Western Cedar and the Australian Cedar. These you definitely stay away from. Then there are a couple others that commonly cause issues. And those are Cedar of Lebanon, and the Port Orford Cedar. The former is found in the mediterranean and the latter is found in the Pacific Northwest of the US. These aren't quite as toxic however I don't think I'd want to mess with them, they have some nasty side effects.

Finally you have 8 other cedar trees. Atlantic White which is in the east, Alaskan yellow which is way north, Eastern Red which is very popular in Texas and Oklahoma extending east. Spanish Cedar which is in central and south america. Southern Red which is in the south very similar and of the same family as the Eastern Red. ALL of these have no side effects beyond just being a mild irritant to some people/animals. It does tend to be a strong odor that some people love and others aren't very fond of.

So the point of all this is to not condemn the cedar. Instead know your cedar. Where did the cedar come from? The people claiming how poisonous it is, are very correct, IF they live in one of those areas with the nasty cedar in it. I live in Oklahoma so I have mostly Southern Red and Eastern Red. I can go anywhere they are cutting up trees and ask for wood chips and have no worries of the side effects.