SILVER PIED ??????

[KsKingBee]

Thats essentially correct. The first row and the first column are always representative of the male or female and the combinations of genes they can pass on. So as you said the first cloum is representative of the genes the pied bird could pass on. He/she could pas a pied gene or a white gene thus the two rows. The silver pied bird can pas a pied or white even as well and under in case will pass a white eye gene as well (assuming we have been correct here).

First column running up and down W and P stands for White and Pied this is a genetic representation of "Pied" (carrying 1 white gene and 1 pied gene) This is the Pied parent.

Across the top running left to right W/WESP and P/WESP this is the genetic representation of "Silver Pied"( carrying 1 white gene and 1 pied gene as well as 2 White Eye genes that have the "special something silver dust making magic ingredient=SP) This is the Silver Pied Parent.

All the remaining squares are showing what possible offspring you could get from this pairing. This amounts to 25% white(W/W/WESP)carrying WE and the magic silver ingredient SP, 50% Silver Pied(W/P/WESP) and lastly 25% Dark Pied White Eye(P/P/WESP) carrying the magic silver ingredient SP as well.

Least I think that's how it reads!

I am really confused, I think you both are saying that the column on the left side, the W and P are the parents of the bird being bred. And the top row are the parents of the other bird being bred. And four boxes under and to the right are the possible offspring?

 

[AugeredIn]

I am really confused, I think you both are saying that the column on the left side, the W and P are the parents of the bird being bred. And the top row are the parents of the other bird being bred. And four boxes under and to the right are the possible offspring?

Lets try a real example to clear it up. Lets keep the first one simple, an India Blue split Pied Male to an India Blue Split White hen.

The males genetics are IB/IB:Nwp/P. The IB/IB indicates the pair of genes that control non-sex linked color. Since they are IB there is no mutation. The Nwp/P indicates the pair of genes that controls pied and white. We no those gene mutations are alleles so they are listed as a pair. The Nwp indicates no mutation for one of the pair.

The hens genes are represented by IB/IB:Nwp/W. Same as the male but there is a white gene instead of a pied gene. A pied bird would be W/P or P/W and a normal bird would be Nwp/Nwp.

To construct the prunett square we have to decide what each bird can give with regards to genetics. The male can give with IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a pied gene. So he can give IB:Nwp or IB. The hen can give an IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a white gene or IB:Nwp or IB:W.

To construct the prunett square we will list the male across the to and the hen down the left side:


IB:Nwp IB
IB:Nwp
IB:W

Now we fill in the answer:

IB:Nwp IB
IB:Nwp IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp IB/IB/Nwp
IB:W IB/IB:Nwp/W IB/IB/W

IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp = India Blue nothing else
IB/IB/W = India Blue Pied


Do you get that so far?

 

[KsKingBee]

Lets try a real example to clear it up. Lets keep the first one simple, an India Blue split Pied Male to an India Blue Split White hen.

The males genetics are IB/IB:Nwp/P. The IB/IB indicates the pair of genes that control non-sex linked color. Since they are IB there is no mutation. The Nwp/P indicates the pair of genes that controls pied and white. We no those gene mutations are alleles so they are listed as a pair. The Nwp indicates no mutation for one of the pair.

The hens genes are represented by IB/IB:Nwp/W. Same as the male but there is a white gene instead of a pied gene. A pied bird would be W/P or P/W and a normal bird would be Nwp/Nwp.

To construct the prunett square we have to decide what each bird can give with regards to genetics. The male can give with IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a pied gene. So he can give IB:Nwp or IB. The hen can give an IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a white gene or IB:Nwp or IB:W.

To construct the prunett square we will list the male across the to and the hen down the left side:


IB:Nwp IB
IB:Nwp
IB:W

Now we fill in the answer:

IB:Nwp IB
IB:Nwp IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp IB/IB/Nwp
IB:W IB/IB:Nwp/W IB/IB/W

IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp = India Blue nothing else
IB/IB/W = India Blue Pied


Do you get that so far?

Thank you for your patience! It is becoming clearer. Does it matter whether the cock is on top and the hen on the side? I would think not as it is the genetics that is being plotted, not the sex.

I have a question on the Nwp, I understand that it means either normal or not carrying white or pied, but can I think of it as Not-White-or-Pied, or just simply Normal?

If I read this right we should get 25% IB, 25% IB split pied, 25% IB split white, and 25% IB Pied?

 

[DylansMom]

Are the pied males out of silver pied parents?

I do not know, if they are out of silvers it would have to be one parent only as neither of these males have more than 3-4 eye feathers with white ocelli.

 

[AugeredIn]

Thank you for your patience! It is becoming clearer. Does it matter whether the cock is on top and the hen on the side? I would think not as it is the genetics that is being plotted, not the sex.

I have a question on the Nwp, I understand that it means either normal or not carrying white or pied, but can I think of it as Not-White-or-Pied, or just simply Normal?

If I read this right we should get 25% IB, 25% IB split pied, 25% IB split white, and 25% IB Pied?

It does not matter whether the cock is on top or on the side. You don't always consider sex in the mix unless you are working with sex link mutations.

You can think of Nwp anyway you want. Nwp is just My way of representing no mutations in that category. Somebody else might use a different convention. I have seen lots of folks just use N. The problem is when you have lots of N variables for instance an IB split pied split BS split WE. IB/IB:N/P:N/BS:N/WE is more confusing to me than IB/IB:Nwp/P:Nbs/BS:Nwe/WE especially since when you right a term for the prunett square it would be IB:N:N:N. You lose track of what you are referring to.

Your odds listed above are correct.

 

[KsKingBee]

@AugeredIn , thank you for putting me on the road to enlightenment!

Now I can at least read the squares, it will take some time to learn to write one.

 

[Jack07]

Lets try a real example to clear it up.  Lets keep the first one simple, an India Blue split Pied Male to an India Blue Split White hen.

The males genetics are IB/IB:Nwp/P.  The IB/IB indicates the pair of genes that control non-sex linked color.  Since they are IB there is no mutation.  The Nwp/P indicates the pair of genes that controls pied and white.  We no those gene mutations are alleles so they are listed as a pair.  The Nwp indicates no mutation for one of the pair. 

The hens genes are represented by IB/IB:Nwp/W.  Same as the male but there is a white gene instead of a pied gene.  A pied bird would be W/P or P/W and a normal bird would be Nwp/Nwp.

To construct the prunett square we have to decide what each bird can give with regards to genetics.  The male can give with IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a pied gene.  So he can give IB:Nwp or IB.  The hen can give an IB gene with either a normal pattern gene or a white gene or IB:Nwp or IB:W.

To construct the prunett square we will list the male across the to and the hen down the left side:


                   IB:Nwp                     IB
IB:Nwp
IB:W

Now we fill in the answer:

                   IB:Nwp                      IB
IB:Nwp      IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp           IB/IB/Nwp
IB:W          IB/IB:Nwp/W               IB/IB/W

IB/IB:Nwp/Nwp = India Blue nothing else
IB/IB/W  = India Blue Pied


Do you get that so far?

we get the same results with this table

but it is not correct

 

[Jack07]

Indian blue. X. Pied

by against this table is correct ???

 

[AugeredIn]

I do not know, if they are out of silvers it would have to be one parent only as neither of these males have more than 3-4 eye feathers with white ocelli.

That bird looks split silver pied. I would bet on it.

 

[AugeredIn]

Indian blue. X. Pied



by against this table is correct ???

Jack, I think both of your tables are correct. By implication you are leaving out the Nwp or non mutation option. The problem is that you are making that implication and as long as we both understand that and everyone else does to, it is fine. I would not leave it out. I would forget and make a mistake if I did it that way. When I have discussions with larger breeders the term get lengthy and if I don't include all the information I tend to get lost.