Viable treatment for Marek's Disease.

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Like most backyard chickens keeps, it has been a bit of a disappointment to find out how much misinformation about chicken keeping there is out there.

I love my girls and I weep openly every time I lose one. My learning years have been harsh and heartbreaking, but my refusal to accept culling being an only option has been fruitful. I hope what I have recently discovered proves useful.

I was losing chickens. They'd be fine one day and dead the next. I have a rotating regimen of worming, pest control, protazoa abatement and bi-weekly, hands on exams. Still, fine one day, dead the next.

Like a good chook mom, all my girls are vaccinated. Turns out, that may not be so good. I recently read on BYC that the Marek's vaccine really does nothing useful. It does not prevent the transmission or contracting the virus, nor does it prevent the development of the disease. (Having the virus or the disease are 2 different things).

All the vaccine does is suppress symptoms. So if your chooks have the virus and develop the disease, they pretty much die without you knowing what killed them.

Every article I had read up to that point said there is no cure, no treatment, the most humane thing you can do is cull the bird to keep them from an agonizing death.

Well, I don't accept that. Marek's is a virus. Viruses have treatments. So I went hunting. Turns out that not only am I right, I'm not the only one giving the traditional data side-eye.

I found several clinical studies and a white paper out of China discussing several chicken viruses and the use of Chinese Skullcap. You can read two of the clinical studies on poultrydmv.org.

It basically rolled down to the herb Having the ability to shut the virus off, returning it to its dormant stage. They tested it with success on Marek's, Avian Flu and Mycoplasma Gallisepticum a/k/a Bubbleye (CRD).

A compilation of this single symptoms my chickens were exhibiting pointed to Marek's Disease. One had wing paralysis, two were limping, egg production was down, pale combs, ruffled feathers and weight loss was abundant and my boss hen, a Silver Wyandotte named Rogue, developed a cataract, she was going blind. I thought they were all soon to be dead.

I read on. 80% of fowl carry the Marek's virus. It mutates and can become quite deadly. But for the most part, it remains dormant. Birds carrying the virus, spread the virus.

So if 80% of fowl carry the virus and the standard recommendation is to cull the birds, wouldn't that wipe out the fowl population? It seems a tad counter productive. Ya think?

I found the clinical studies and poultrydmv.org confirmed my findings of 425mg, one time daily but no length of treatment is given. I went with 3 days.

Rouge was first in line. 425mg for 3 days. Then I decided to repeat in a week.

That was a month ago. Rogue is returning to normal. No longer a complacent lump, she's making rounds and kicking cloacas.

My other birds are recovering. I'm still treating the non-symptomatic birds.

I hope this is helpful.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463782/

Antiviral effect of baicalin on Marek's disease virus in CEF cells:

https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-020-02595-x

Baicalin (Scutellaria baicalensis) extract

100-200 mg/kg of diet

F Yang et al., 2020; Y Zhou et al., 2019; B Yin et al., 2021; M Bao et al., 2022; Z Hu et al., 2022

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Like most backyard chickens keeps, it has been a bit of a disappointment to find out how much misinformation about chicken keeping there is out there.

I love my girls and I weep openly every time I lose one. My learning years have been harsh and heartbreaking, but my refusal to accept culling being an only option has been fruitful. I hope what I have recently discovered proves useful.

I was losing chickens. They'd be fine one day and dead the next. I have a rotating regimen of worming, pest control, protazoa abatement and bi-weekly, hands on exams. Still, fine one day, dead the next.

Like a good chook mom, all my girls are vaccinated. Turns out, that may not be so good. I recently read on BYC that the Marek's vaccine really does nothing useful. It does not prevent the transmission or contracting the virus, nor does it prevent the development of the disease. (Having the virus or the disease are 2 different things).

All the vaccine does is suppress symptoms. So if your chooks have the virus and develop the disease, they pretty much die without you knowing what killed them.

Every article I had read up to that point said there is no cure, no treatment, the most humane thing you can do is cull the bird to keep them from an agonizing death.

Well, I don't accept that. Marek's is a virus. Viruses have treatments. So I went hunting. Turns out that not only am I right, I'm not the only one giving the traditional data side-eye.

I found several clinical studies and a white paper out of China discussing several chicken viruses and the use of Chinese Skullcap. You can read two of the clinical studies on poultrydmv.org.

It basically rolled down to the herb Having the ability to shut the virus off, returning it to its dormant stage. They tested it with success on Marek's, Avian Flu and Mycoplasma Gallisepticum a/k/a Bubbleye (CRD).

A compilation of this single symptoms my chickens were exhibiting pointed to Marek's Disease. One had wing paralysis, two were limping, egg production was down, pale combs, ruffled feathers and weight loss was abundant and my boss hen, a Silver Wyandotte named Rogue, developed a cataract, she was going blind. I thought they were all soon to be dead.

I read on. 80% of fowl carry the Marek's virus. It mutates and can become quite deadly. But for the most part, it remains dormant. Birds carrying the virus, spread the virus.

So if 80% of fowl carry the virus and the standard recommendation is to cull the birds, wouldn't that wipe out the fowl population? It seems a tad counter productive. Ya think?

I found the clinical studies and poultrydmv.org confirmed my findings of 425mg, one time daily but no length of treatment is given. I went with 3 days.

Rouge was first in line. 425mg for 3 days. Then I decided to repeat in a week.

That was a month ago. Rogue is returning to normal. No longer a complacent lump, she's making rounds and kicking cloacas.

My other birds are recovering. I'm still treating the non-symptomatic birds.

I hope this is helpful.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463782/

Antiviral effect of baicalin on Marek's disease virus in CEF cells:

https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-020-02595-x

Baicalin (Scutellaria baicalensis) extract

100-200 mg/kg of diet

F Yang et al., 2020; Y Zhou et al., 2019; B Yin et al., 2021; M Bao et al., 2022; Z Hu et al., 2022

Update: Other than adding links to research sources, I did not plan to make updates to this. However, while continuing to research and rereading prior research bases off comments, I decided that after initial dosing, a short term regimen might be necessary. The studies indicate an effectiveness decline after 96 hours (4 days). I thought it has been exactly 4 days since I gave her the 1 week follow up. So I dosed her and gave her an exam.



She's still thin, but she eats. She's still off lay, pair that with vision problems from the blind eye, a lesser appetite is expected. She's no longer losing feathers. Comb is still pale.



Here's the notable event. The gray scale on her eye is almost cleared and the cataract has shrunk to a pinpoint. I am shocked. Like 'No REALLY!'. How is that even possible? There is still a small area of gray scale on her pupil and her iris is no longer exactly gray. It was like gray/colorless but now it has a bit of orange tint (the original color). And she's tracking with that eye! Ya'll, I thought blindness was one of the things that didn't resolve. She has a whole special needs apartment setup because I thought it was permanent.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I must say I'm not a fan of the Marek's vaccine.

The vaccine can help control the formation of tumors, but it does not prevent infection from the virus. The vaccine may suppress clinical symptoms. It does not prevent shedding.
There's been a LOT of threads over the years with folks having sick vaccinated birds, necropsy revealed a main cause of decline was Marek's. And to be fair, unvaccinated birds have become sick and died as well.

However, if one already has Marek's within their flock, then vaccinating chicks might be beneficial, but it is crucial that vaccinated chicks not be exposed (need to be completely quarantined) for a minimum of 2wks. This would be hard to do in a backyard setting.


The best thing that anyone can do is research on their own and decide for themselves whether vaccination is the right choice for their flock(s). There are a lot of studies published and available, it just takes a lot of time to wade through them.

Dust or dander from infected chickens is particularly effective in transmission. Once the virus is introduced into a chicken flock, regardless of vaccination status, infection spreads quickly from bird to bird. Infected chickens continue to be carriers for long periods and act as sources of infectious virus. Shedding of infectious virus can be reduced, but not prevented, by prior vaccination. https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/marek-s-disease-in-poultry


All MDV vaccines only prevent clinical symptoms, but do not prevent virus replication and shedding in the vaccinated host. While reduced shedding from vaccinated birds has been reported [87,88], these ‘imperfect’ vaccines still allow virus spread and evolution in the field, and are associated with the emergence of field strains with increased virulence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7139298/

These results show that currently available Rispens CVI988 vaccine virus is shed in significant quantities from vaccinated chickens and transmits effectively between chickens. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23901761/


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17622613/

 

[Razzlefrazzle]

I recently read on BYC that the Marek's vaccine really does nothing useful.

Be careful about believing everything you read here on BYC (and on the internet in general). A lot of misinformation out there intentionally or not. Unless you consider frequently preventing death "nothing useful" that statement about the Marek's vaccine is just plain false. The vaccine prepares the body's immune system so it can fight the virus quickly when exposed thereby preventing the development of the disease. No, the vaccine is not perfect, because there are many strains and virus is always changing, but it's a lot better than nothing.

Also if your birds are "fine one day, dead the next" that is likely due to another disease like fatty liver syndrome, which does cause sudden death, rather than Marek's.

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Be careful about believing everything you read here on BYC (and on the internet in general). A lot of misinformation out there intentionally or not. Unless you consider frequently preventing death "nothing useful" that statement about the Marek's vaccine is just plain false. The vaccine prepares the body's immune system so it can fight the virus quickly when exposed thereby preventing the development of the disease. No, the vaccine is not perfect, because there are many strains and virus is always changing, but it's a lot better than nothing.

Also if your birds are "fine one day, dead the next" that is likely due to another disease like fatty liver syndrome, which does cause sudden death, rather than Marek's.

From what I read, it does NOT prepare the immune system for anything. It suppresses symptoms, mainly it prevents the tumors. But the disease causes organ failure, so liver failure is not impossible.

I research and read clinical studies, white papers. BYC is great for diagnosis, and sometimes leads to run

Here's the beginning of my rabbit hole. See where it leads you:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/scienc...gainst Marek's disease,virus that is that hot.

 

[Razzlefrazzle]

From what I read, it does NOT prepare the immune system for anything. It suppresses symptoms, mainly it prevents the tumors. But the disease causes organ failure, so liver failure is not impossible.

Those tumors are the manifestation of the disease in the visceral form, like neuropathy and paralysis are in the neural form. Vaccination (ideally) prevents the disease (in any form) from developing. The chickens are infected with the virus, but don't become sick from it when vaccinated (again, ideally). Vaccination works by introducing a harmless form of the virus to the immune system so when it is exposed to the real, disease-causing virus it has already built up resistance and can respond quickly.

I'm all for trying herbal remedies and hope your chickens improve, but I also think it's important that people know that the vaccine, far from being useless, is actually the easiest and most effective way to keep their chickens from dying of Marek's disease.

 

[Mason Farm and Ranch]

Those tumors are the manifestation of the disease in the visceral form, like neuropathy and paralysis are in the neural form. Vaccination (ideally) prevents the disease (in any form) from developing. The chickens are infected with the virus, but don't become sick from it when vaccinated (again, ideally). Vaccination works by introducing a harmless form of the virus to the immune system so when it is exposed to the real, disease-causing virus it has already built up resistance and can respond quickly.

I'm all for trying herbal remedies and hope your chickens improve, but I also think it's important that people know that the vaccine, far from being useless, is actually the easiest and most effective way to keep their chickens from dying of Marek's disease.

I have 17 dead birds that were fully vaccinated.

Those tumors are the manifestation of the disease in the visceral form, like neuropathy and paralysis are in the neural form. Vaccination (ideally) prevents the disease (in any form) from developing. The chickens are infected with the virus, but don't become sick from it when vaccinated (again, ideally). Vaccination works by introducing a harmless form of the virus to the immune system so when it is exposed to the real, disease-causing virus it has already built up resistance and can respond quickly.

I'm all for trying herbal remedies and hope your chickens improve, but I also think it's important that people know that the vaccine, far from being useless, is actually the easiest and most effective way to keep their chickens from dying of Marek's disease.

I am no vaccine person, but I would edit this to say "the ONLY way to keep....." even if Chinese skull cap would slow the progression, it wouldn't ever prevent it from manifesting.

Aside from good husbandry and flock control (quarantine new birds mainly) the vaccine is your only hope of prevention.

Again, there just aren't enough resources to continue develop the proper vaccines.

The flu vaccine for humans is constantly evolving because the flu changes. It needs to be reformulated every year - and because we don't know what the flu is going to look like exactly, we are a year behind on formulation - basically guessing as to what it will look like. And guess what, people still get the flu.

The Mareks vaccine does go through reformulation, but no where near the needed intervals and with no where near the funding. But it still protects thousands and thousands of birds and flocks a year and I would encourage anyone based on their flock goals to have their birds vaccinated.

On a side note - there is an article here on BYC, and incredible article, about a women, her flock with Mareks, and a local "immune" flock. I would encourage every person to read this

I had no idea it would clear up. It didn't occur to me to take a photo of something I didn't expect to change.

I'll go through recent photos to see if I managed to catch it in one. I'm not hopeful as she was keeping it closed most of the time.

I'll get a photo of the current

I am no vaccine person, but I would edit this to say "the ONLY way to keep....." even if Chinese skull cap would slow the progression, it wouldn't ever prevent it from manifesting.

Aside from good husbandry and flock control (quarantine new birds mainly) the vaccine is your only hope of prevention.

Again, there just aren't enough resources to continue develop the proper vaccines.

The flu vaccine for humans is constantly evolving because the flu changes. It needs to be reformulated every year - and because we don't know what the flu is going to look like exactly, we are a year behind on formulation - basically guessing as to what it will look like. And guess what, people still get the flu.

The Mareks vaccine does go through reformulation, but no where near the needed intervals and with no where near the funding. But it still protects thousands and thousands of birds and flocks a year and I would encourage anyone based on their flock goals to have their birds vaccinated.

On a side note - there is an article here on BYC, and incredible article, about a women, her flock with Mareks, and a local "immune" flock. I would encourage every person to read this article.

The clinical studies show Chinese Skullcap stopping progression, not slowing it.

Clarify the point of quarantine? Once a bird is infected, they are infected for life and shed virus regardless of vaccination. Two weeks asymptomatic in segregation does what exactly?

The Marek's vaccine is and has always been made from a turkey virus that is harmless to both species.

Here it is.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...-i-learned-to-deal-with-mareks-disease.76944/

I read this and I agree. Everyone should read it. My favorite part is where she was advised NOT to start over, but breed the birds over 3 years old for birds resistant to the local strains.

My original birds were purchased from an online hatchery 2k miles away. Rookie mistake I guess. On the upside, the ones that are left turn 3 in November.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I have 17 dead birds that were fully vaccinated.

You have had a necropsy confirming Marek's right?

Thank you for the photos by the way! Do keep up with documenting this. I still find it all interesting to see what others do.

Now. I can't say whether or not what you see with your hen's eye is Ocular form of Marek's or not. I think it's very good that she's improving!
I'm looking at the photos and doing a comparison. You have an older photo that shows a normal eye with normal color, then the eye that is "off".
I do note that the lower lid looks to have been damaged or cut. I wonder if she at some point suffered a poke or injury to the eye which can cause color change.

 

[AidKD]

Wow! This definitely needs to be circulated so others can also test it out! Great job on your research! The only way that we're gonna find true cures and stop going by statistics is only by us backyard, hands-on poultry keepers who really know what we're talking about. Not by a scientist in a lab who's job is to find a cover-up for serious diseases that really have serious cures.

 

[BastyPutt]

I don't believe it is misinformation or a lack of desire to find a cure - but a lack of resources.

To the general public, a chicken is a pretty expendable animal. For those who don't have them, they wouldn't understand why you would necessarily want to try and save something that isn't really "a pet" and has a generally short life span.

This is why this site even exists. When you have a sick dog, you take it to a vet. When you have a sick chicken - you have to search for miles to find a vet who isn't necessarily an expert - who will generally tell you culling is the answer because again, people don't understand chickens. Instead, you see dozens of posts here a day seeking medical help for their ailing birds.

Chinese skullcap is an herbal antiviral with quite a bit of research done regarding its healing properties on humans. The general consensus is that it SLOWS progression of a virus, but won't eliminate it. Meaning the chicken will ultimately die the agonizing, slow death that you have mentioned here, but it may not happen right away. Not to mention, there are multiple different types of Mareks, with ocular Mareks (what I would suspect in Rouge) is on the lower end of the mortality scale, but still deadly.

Anyone who has had chickens for long enough has watched one wither away and die. I am certainly no exception. I am all about treating an animal to an extent, until I believe the treatments are being administered because I am feeling sad or emotional about the animal dying. This is when culling or putting and animal down becomes the only treatment they deserve.

And to the vaccines, just as in humans, it's a choice for the owner to make. I personally have never advocated for them and believe a natural immunity can be developed by a generational flock, but if at the least a vaccine brings a peace of mind to folks, I would encourage them to do what they see fit for their birds.