Question about Wazine Wormer

Hi there,
I've got four hens, and four more month-old chicks.

One of the adult ladies is eating, drinking and pooping normally, but is very thin. Another of my hens seems itchy, though try as I might I cannot see any lice or mites on her-- and yes, I've crept in with the flashlight at night.

I've never wormed them, and their pen is very large but mostly dirt, so I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to worm them. I went to the feed store and read the Wazine bottle--- wow--- am I ever confused!

It's an 8 oz. bottle. It says for a flock of 100 chickens, use 1 oz. in their water. 100 chickens! I've got 4!!! How would I ever scale that dosage down? And should I LEAVE it in their water, or only give them the medicated water for 24 hours?

Or should I use ivermectin or something else instead? I've never seen any evidence of worms, but then again, I've read here that chickens very rarely pass worms, and just because you cant see them in their poo doesn't mean they don't have worms. It's all I can think of for my poor thin girl.

Any advice? Please? I'd like to get them treated this weekend. They're not really laying very well, so waiting the 14 days won't be a problem.

Thanks in advance,
AStrid

I'd start with the wazine as you are if they haven't been wormed. IS it 17% piperazine? ("Wazine 17"?) If so, you use 1 ounce per gallon of drinking water as their sole source of water for one day. Another source says use 2 teaspoons per gallon of water for 2 days.

Then in 2-4 weeks you can go back and retreat with ivermectin, fenbendazole, levamisole, etc. You could repeat with wazine but then you're only getting the adult rounds, not the larvae. Ivermectin kills their larvae but since you don't know the exact worm load of these birds, knocking back the numbers first with Wazine 17 is the way to go.

I'm a little concerned about them not laying well. Do you want to attack that, too? I'm game if you are.

Oh yes, I'm definitely game!
Here's more specifics:

2 buff orps, 2 barred rocks, two years old. They have an indoor coop that is HUGE; it's an old shed that opens into the main floor of our old carriage barn. Wooden floor, lots of ventilation, not damp at all. They roost on a big slab of wood that was the work bench when this was a potting/tool shed a century ago. The coop opens into a big run that my dh built. Mostly dirt floor now, but about 20'x30 and completely fenced-- top, sides, and fencing buried 15" and flanged out to prevent predators from digging under. It' like Fort Knox. We don't free-range them because we live in a residential neighborhood and I'm afraid of cars/other people's dogs/cats, etc. However, the Buffs are so tame that we often take them out in the yard to peck around while we're sitting on the deck so we can supervise them. They're easier to catch than the rocks; we are afraid that we won't be able to catch the rocks if we do this with them.

They get layer crumble and a bit of scratch every day, fresh water with Avia Charge 2000, and assorted kitchen scraps occasionally, which mostly consist of a few Cheerios, carrot/cuke peelings, occasionally the ends of leaf lettuce from our own garden.

One of the Buffs is the skinny one-- she eats, drinks and poops normally but doesn't seem to keep weight on. When I pick her up she's light as a feather. That's what made me think of worming them in the first place. Her comb and wattles are also much smaller than those of the other Buff. Lately, she has chosen to sleep separate from the rest, in a different part of the coop.

One of the Rocks is HUGE, and healthy as a horse (eats, poops, etc.) but seems to pluck the feathers out of her breast. She's not acting broody any other way but seems rather itchy. Also, she's got kind of a band of bareness around her butt-- the skin is bright red but dry, not weepy or moist. I've never seen any picking by the other birds, and she's pretty much the top dog, so I doubt it's the work of someone else. The thing is, though I've checked and checked and checked some more, I've never seen any evidence of mites or lice. However, I've got some poultry dust and I'm going to tackle that today.

About a month ago, we added four Americauna chicklets. They are penned in a separate area of the coop, and have a separate exit to a separate but adjoining pen, which we call the "Kindergarten Coop." None of the four big girls have acted much differently since the arrival of the babies; they don't seem particularly upset by their presence.

Could the babies' presence by causing them to be on a laying strike? None are acting broody, and aside from the bare patches on the rock and the skinny condition of the buff, there doesn't seem to be anything else amiss.

So, any ideas, threehorses? Or anyone else? I really appreciate your help!

Astrid

When you're examining them, is there any evidence of molt? Pin feathers, some new feathers conspicuously in with old?

Yes on the dusting by the way - it's a good prevention, might catch some mites, but it sounds like you've checked thoroughly. Night time's the best time to catch them but honestly they can live for ages off of the bird.

There are a number of issues that could cause a cessation in laying. I wouldn't think the new babies would be one if they're otherwise nonplussed. Worms, digestive yeast/fungi imbalance (possible in the case of the red vented hen), diet (calcium needs - see below), etc.

For now, because other than the thin hen and the one with the feather issues, they seem to be in normal health. I would worm, yes. Because of the mystery of the mite-signs-without-mites, I would consider doing a follow up with ivermectin which should allow you to not have to worm again until well in the fall. Now's a good time since they're not laying.

Because you are supplementing with aviacharge, I'm not too concerned about D3 being insufficient and because of your good diet I'm also not concerned about not enough phosphorus.

Calcium would be the one thing I'd supplement. Laying crumbles are usually a 6:1 cal/phos balance. However, sometimes hens need as much as 15:1 calcium. They don't make laying pellets 15:1 because it would force calcium into the more average hens who don't need that much, causing a toxic overage. That's why I'd recommend oyster shell. It's a very bioavailable source of calcium that hens will pick up if they need more. They have an instinct for it. That allows the hens that need 15:1 to up their calcium while your average hens are great with the laying pellets.

Feed it free-choice separate from the food. It will never hurt, and will always help. You might have to scrabble your fingers around in it to show them it's there - or let them see you pour it.

You can mix your granite grit (for the grit needs of any flock) into the same oyster shell bin. That's fine - they know the difference.

I would also consider upping the protein next bag of feed possible if you're feeding the 16%. Many feedstores carry 20% and that might help with refeathering of that one hen's vent, additional laying, etc. It's not a requirement (as I feel the oyster shell is more important) but a thought.

I would definitely worm them all however. Wazine is designed to repeat, so either repeat it in 2-4 weeks after the wazine or better yet use the ivermectin or fenbendazole or levamisole. (Ivermectin pour-on will kill external blood-taking parasites like lice, etc.)

Can you weigh them? Weighing the thin hen before and 2 weeks after the worming is often a good way of seeing what's going on. I would also consider giving them some yogurt this week (high in calcium, good with D3, has some fat and protein) to give the bacteria in their digestive tract some back-up numbers and possibly giving them a calcium/D3 boost. It'll help them more efficienty use their food. Also be sure to do that the day you worm.

That's my recommendation.

By the way your place sounds absolutely wonderful!! I love old carriage houses. What a neat treat.

Have you considered putting slatting over the top of the roosting slab of wood - so that the wood acts like a 'droppings board' and keeps the hens more separate from any droppigns?

Ohhh and almost forgot - where the dirt is bare, using sand (like playsand etc) on top will help keep down odors, make the area attractive, and has the added benefit of being low moisture which helps to reduce worms and the longevity of any bacteria that get into the ground. Because it's so dry, it's very easy to rake and keep clean and aerated.

Thanks for your wonderful reply!

Now, when it rains it pours! This afternoon one of our noisiest and bossiest hens, a barred rock, is acting funny! She's almost falling asleep on her feet--- eyes closing, not moving much. She's not hunkered down, and she's not puffed up at all. Just "sleepy." I offered her some yogurt and she ate a bit, but not with the gusto that she usually has. Any ideas???

I will worm, up the calcium, and then see what happens.

About the slats over the wooden slab-- we use an old metal dustpan and putty knife and clean the slab every other day so they really are not sitting in any droppings.

I should have added that we live in Connecticut and have had more rain recently than we know what to do with, so their run is more damp than usual. I"ll toss in some play sand; I'm sure that will help!

Thanks so much!
Astrid

Hmmm these two things are related. Any runny droppings? Do you have any Sulmet or Corid around just in case? Any antibiotics in case any respiratory symptoms start?

Yes, here's her poo this afternoon:


No, no antibiotics. Where would I get those? Are they available at feed stores, etc?

Which two things are related--- the rain and the lethargy? Or the skinny hen and the lethargic hen?

Should I isolate her? Should I hold off worming her so as not to stress her system?

Now I'm getting worried!

astrid

edited to add-- Yes, there are some pin feathers, especially on her backside, etc. and I do see some barred rock feathers around in the coop, etc. Could she be molting?

Quote:
This dropping to me looks like a normal dropping for a bird who is drinking a good bit of water in the summer.

Examine the three parts: Feces, urine, urates.
The feces are a good normal color, solid and worm-like, and normal. The urates (the white crystals) are white - not tinted with yellow or red/pink. The urine (clear) is profuse but not unexpected in the summer. It has neither degraded the feces nor does it seem mucous. (If you find these droppings later, sometimes profuse urine can make the feces seem mushier than they are because they fall apart - these look textbook perfect).

The lethargic hen could be worms - but could be something else. I'd make sure they get a lot of air ventilation in the rainy weather particularly. There seems to be a lot of this sort of thing going around with vague symptoms and rainy weather.

On the antibiotics, I always like to have Sulmet and then LS50 or Tylan around or easily acquired anyway. I less prefer duramycin but it will do if there's absolutely no other choice (tho it's not effective for everything and I feel it can be a weaker med). I wouldn't worry about using these yet - it's just one of those things that often when you need them, it's 10 p.m on a Saturday night and nothing's open the next day. /sigh

Because of the pinfeathers, I'd suspect that the laying issues could partially be because of a molt. I'd still adjust the calcium supplementation, possibly give more protein (to help with quicker feather growth) which you could also do with boiled/mashed eggs as a treat. I'd do those two things and then try the sand to help keep things neater. IT really is nice, and the rain drains through sand instead of soaking into it - really nice for footing.

Hopefully they're just off but I'm still worried about this one hen. IS the humidity making it extra hot there? Humidity often adds 10 degrees to the heat index.

I cannot tell you how much you've put my mind at ease!
I cooked an egg yolk and fed it to her, which she ate voraciously. She's still standing and looking sleepy, not her normal, boisterous self, but at least her poo looks fine.


It's not especially hot here, mid-80's or so with high humidity, which is
a bit of a change because it's been so cool and rainy here.


I"ll get some sand tomorrow and continue with the worming plan-- to be clear--- does this sound correct--- I'll pull their water tonight, mix 1 tablespoon of wazine in 1 gallon of water, and put it out for 24 hours, then replace it with fresh water, right? I"m worried about the concentration, since the label says one ounce for 100 chickens and I"ve only got four, but I trust you guys!

And I should dust them with the poultry dust tonight as well, correct? Do you think it's too much to worm and dust at the same time? Will it shock their systems? Be too much for the droopy barred rock?

again, I can't thank you enough for your help!
astrid

Ahhh eating something is good news, indeed!

I have two different directions on wazine 17. Foys says use 2 tablespoons (one fluid ounce) for 1 gallon, 2 days. Most other directions say one ounce (which is still 2 Tablespoons) per gallon for one day. Since you're going to follow up, I'd say one day, one ounce (2 tablespoons) per gallon.

Then you replace with fresh water yes.

You can dust them tonight if you want. But I don't know that I would. I'd wait because you're really checking for mites and lice. I'd continue to check at night a couple of times for mites first - then consider it in a week maybe.


Let me know, please, if anything at all changes with the hens - good or bad. Thanks!