Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[galanie]

In your line of reasoning, there are no "pure" lines of any creature at all that people have been keeping for the last few thousand years. Even you will never find a "pure" breed because they don't exist any longer. Unless maybe you can creep around in a jungle somewhere and get lucky.

On the contrary, I was trying to stress the importance of keeping the foundation breeds of Standard Poultry pure. By foundation breeds, I mean the Dorking and others like it, which are so old that their origin- how they were bred in the first place- is not known.

I was surprised and disappointed that other breeders feel that crossbreeding a foundation breed of Standard poultry is acceptable, for any reason. I'm struggling with my Dorkings to bring them back to standard, so it's not like I don't know what you all are saying. There are no good Dorkings out there. But, I won't crossbreed in another breed because I wouldn't consider the offspring purebred.

And if every breeder has been crossbreeding them all along, what's the point of breeding them at all? That's not preserving the original foundation breed. That's creating a composite breed.

Let me ask you then. What are the "pure" breeds and how do you know they are "pure?" The Dorking has been outcrossed too, I dare say. Or perhaps it's so pure and wonderful that no such thing has ever been needed? I know that with some breeds we have the advantage of actually and for real knowing what crosses created the breed in the first place and with others we don't. Is it perhaps the ones we don't know about that are "pure?" I'm not just trying to argue here. I'm being realistic.

All "breeds" are the result of some sort of cross breeding. Just because you don't know exactly what went into making your chosen sort "pure" doesn't mean that somehow, somewhere, magically a race of chickens appeared from nowhere that are "pure" and none of the others are. Maybe what you mean to say is "directly genetically related to the originators of the breed and no others?" In which case, that's a complete other ball of wax that includes my point.

 

[Bentley]

Wow, this whole conversation seems a tad familiar. Perhaps it's de ja vu all over again......

 

[mschlumb]

We need to ask ourselves, why do we keep livestock? Why do we try to preserve rare breeds? Early man kept birds around for their meat, eggs, and for sport. As the concepts of selective breeding took its toll on early fowls, the breeds changed to suit mans' needs. As this went on different breeds arose from local types adapted to that environment. These birds were subsequently breed because they were good at creating food, a neccessity to humans. When we compare breeds today we see each has a special quality(s) that make them neccesary. When the APA formed they were not concerned about saving an old breed just to save. They demanded utility. Isn't that what heritage birds are all about? Have we been caught up in the romantacism of breeds' origins that we forget their real utility? Are we more concerned about saving old lines, or more about saving their utility? The bird is just the mechanism used to deliver these traits be it meat, eggs, show or a combintation of all three. If that bird no longer fills these utilities then is it really that breed? Who cares what lies behind it 10 generations ago,If it is shaped like a certain breed, breeds true and has the same traditional utility as a certain breed isnt that enough?
If you can honestly say your birds meet APA requirments and purpose and can be traced back for years and years and have had no crossbreeding, then that's just icing on the cake. And that should be everyones goal, sometimes it just isnt realistic.

I think even with the old foundation breeds like Dorkings, or any breed of poultry and livestock, you are going to be hard pressed to find individuals that at one point in their long history didn't have some other breed or some or some other variety crossed into it.
For example the cuckoo Dorking. This variety was admitted in 1998, so not an old variety at all. My question is where did it come from? Did they randomly show up in some strain of Silver-Gray? (doubtful) or were they likely crossed with some other breed? are they then not worthy of preservation? Should they not be considered Dorkings if they have been crossbred?
We see this with large livestock. If i'm not mistaken the Dutch Belted cattle have an upgrading system where bulls can be crossed to other breeds to increase their numbers. Then after this initial cross they are selected for traditional Dutch belted characterisrics. Having a grade Dutch Belted is better than having none at all or highly inbred ones. And as a bonus the milk yield will likely increase making them more popular. breeds change constantly to suit man's needs and wants. sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.

Now, I am not syaing go crossing everything willy nilly. When we do crosssbreed we need to be responsible about it. we need to breed birds according to their purpose, type, size, and color. If we just so happen to need to crossbreed to get back to that then what's so wrong with that?

 

[cubalaya]

good post, mschlumb. keep 2 lines. one line of the 'pure' and one line that you have graded to make your improvements. after 10 years see which line is more productive and more resembles the apa standard.

 

[Bentley]

Rock and roll Schlumb, rock n roll....... How was the view from that soapbox? You brought up some excellent points

 

[mschlumb]

good post, mschlumb. keep 2 lines. one line of the 'pure' and one line that you have graded to make your improvements. after 10 years see which line is more productive and more resembles the apa standard.

Thanks. You are exactly right! keep two lines. One pure and one expermiental cross. If the cross doesn't work, then it didn't work! Its going to be different for everyone

 

[mschlumb]

Rock and roll Schlumb, rock n roll....... How was the view from that soapbox? You brought up some excellent points

thanks. i'll try to keep off of it as much as I can. Don't get me wrong, breed character and purity are important!!

 

[Robert Blosl]

Just got back from the Pensacola Poultry Show some of the early large fowl put in was these nice Buckeyes from our friend on this thread from middle Alabama. He had a cock bird and his nephew a Ckl that where in good finish. Saw some great white rock large fowl and Rhode Island Reds, White Leghorns, Light Sussex something new for my eyes and the judge who was from Iowa has some old Speckled Sussex so he is going to help this lady after the show put her matings together. She is someone who has made the move from back yard scubas to Heritage and did a bang up job getting them to a finish. He said those are some of the best I have seen in a while. Saw some nice New Hemispheres the German kind and some pretty Buff Orpington large fowl from Indiana strain. Funny thing up there the breeder has killer females down her we raise killer males. Why the change does climate have a reason?

This show was impressive. It was a flower barn where they exhibit plants during the fair and they had bantams on one side and large fowl on the other. It had Christmas decorations and plants from a nursery. It kind of reminded me of the Poultry Shows in Germany and Holland. First class and I think people will spread the word and want to come to the spring show and again next year at the winter show.

Will take more pictures tomorrow. I talked to two of the judges who are large fowl super judges and they have names of rare breed breeders who we can contact if there is a breed you would like to have. Heck our show sectary has light Sussex how rare can that be. They also said they are seeing a increase in large fowl being shown around the country so that's a wish for me and maybe we are doing smiting good on this site to promote the old fashion large fowl that Grandma use to raise. See you tomorrow night.

 

[cluck-cluck]

I think purebred is when the genetics consistently breed the same for type and color. How it gets that combination doesn't matter.

 

[FOGELLY]

Took some pictures in my Barred Rock pen today. They are around 20 weeks.