2 yr old rooster has gone psycho

[chooks4life]

So happy I found this thread! It was a great read and I learned a lot. Thank you chooks.
If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to hear more of your take on aggressive hens.
Recently, one of my hens went broody. I put her in her own pen away from the flock so she could brood in peace.
I put eggs under her and would candle them regularly. When I reached under her she would look at me and fluff up and say "Ourrrrp"
She would turn and sort of peck me, but it was very half-hearted, and seemed more like she was trying to figure out what was touching her.
The only time she REALLY pecked me was the night I looked under her butt feathers to see an adorable little yellow face peeking out at me.
That was when she seemed to become serious.

She has two babies now that are a few weeks old.

If I enter the pen and I don't have food or anything to offer, I can sort of see it in her eyes, that she's about to be mean.
She has pecked me since and was quite serious about it, holding on and doing the head twists and hitting me with her legs, but she has never shown this behavior before having her babies.
Do you think this behavior is temporary and expected?

Even though she tells her babies to eat out of my hands?

Thanks!

Sorry, but in my experience that's not to be tolerated. Violence and abuse whether from males or females is strongly hereditary. I initially used to tolerate very gentle pecks from both males and females when they were sitting on eggs (yes, some of my roosters had the habit of accompanying their girlfriends onto the nests while eggs were laid and they too tried to sit on eggs)... But in my experience it only degenerates, and no matter the reasons, it should not be bred on.

The birds you allow to attack you, however gently at first, and for whatever reason, will either escalate down the track (almost all do) or produce offspring who seem to have simply hatched with the degree of aggression already a notch higher than their parents.

Some of my hens have spurs too, but even hens who don't, I wouldn't tolerate an attack from. Their sons will also likely have the same mentality. Even a hen can take your vision and they are pretty prone to facial attacks when riled up enough.

Incidentally the one who attacked me didn't have spurs, but she was as nasty as a little pair of those electrician's wire-cutters. Because my hands are tough, and I didn't react to her twisting and cutting and stabbing, she learned to go between the fingers, and when that stopped getting a response she went for my face. As with the rooster I culled she preferred to attack from the side, slightly behind.

She choked to death on a long blade of dry grass before I could kill her; it was actually her hyper-aggressive nature that caused her to choke on it, since she tried to scream at me and swallow at the same time. All I was doing was bringing her chicks some food, I was still outside her cage, and she was already in full attack mode which I'd come to expect from her. She was a good looking bird but all her chicks were scrappy, worthless birds which I have found very common to very aggressive birds. I suspect excessive aggression in some cases is the breeding strategy of the sub-par animal, since prime animals never have a shortage of willing mates but poor quality animals often get left out in the cold so to speak.

Her mother was very nest-possessive but never harmed anyone over her eggs or chicks, or over anything. She just made great displays and sound effects. That hen has a habit of producing aggressive daughters, though. I've frequently seen that the offspring enlarge upon the habits of the parents, traits tend to increase or decrease, not remain static.

 

[chooks4life]

@chooks4life
Can you tell me more about this comment: It's not a bluff... It never is. Even a charge, terminated before arriving at the victim, is not a true bluff. It's indicative of his mental state

Mine ran up behind me a few weeks ago as I was coming back to the house and I heard him, but he stopped 8-10 feet away. It surprised me and he wasn't making any type of threatening gesture. When I turned around he wasn't doing anything but standing there. Head wasn't down, hackles not raised. I thought to myself You better not be running at me, you Booger.
Well, he did it again this week, but I noticed it was in the same place, alongside my chain link fence that my dogs are behind and he does not like my boxer, who i know would attack them. The first time i don't know if she was there. This time i think he was charging at the fence and she was about six feet on the other side of it but, hello, he was behind me again! Lol So I don't know if it was a coincidence or what.
He's about 1 1/2 years old, moves away when I walk toward him but not skittish. He'll come right over for treats, letting the girls eat more than he will. Generally, he's watchful but we just co-exist. I'm very careful to have my son not startle the birds or do anything to appear as a threat. Do you think we're ok? Anything else we ought to be looking for? The only other questionable sign is how he watches us sometimes. I can read a dog like a book but I can't understand rooster looks yet. I don't want to inadvertently challenge him. :-/
Other than that, he was alpha at his previous place but always fine with people, I was told. I know them so i don't think they'd sell me a mean one, they'd probably butcher. They just had a lot of roos and he was not tolerating the young ones. No dropping the wing at me or dancing around etc.

Thanks for sharing! I just want to be careful. I have a little boy and don't want any surprise attacks. Of course, my son is never around them alone at this age.

Well, I don't think it sounds too good, because I've seen the same behavior before with roosters starting to show aggression by stomping up behind people, then stopping, and standing there looking slightly befuddled --- but that said I can't tell exactly what's going on with you and him.

I would watch him, and since he wasn't good with the younger roos at his last place chances are his behavior will escalate, not that it will necessarily escalate into attacking humans, but time will tell. He might be winding up to attack your dogs. Or he might be winding up to attack you. Best watched closely either way.

I don't keep animals that don't get along with others because generally that counterproductive aggressive mentality spills over into every area of their lives. They proved themselves to be a waste of time and effort every time.

Don't worry about inadvertently challenging him, if you're just going about your business normally he should be fine and be used to it, especially because he's been exposed to more people than the average rooster, judging from his past. You just need to watch his behavior, if he's running from you or 'fronting up'/squaring off when you approach, then he's taken it as a challenge, but regardless of the reasons, if he reacts aggressively to a perceived challenge from a human, then he's not safe. If he reacts with fear he can be reassured, but if he reacts with aggression he's got a dangerous mentality.

Best wishes.

I recently had a similar few episodes with my very calm BJG roo. At first I wasn't sure if that's what he was going for but after a few days he grew a pair and squared up to me and came at me like he meant business. At first I was going for the first thing I could find to take him out and put him in the fridge. Then I tried something... (Only cause he beat me to the pitchfork). It looked a bit funny, and after a few minutes I was laughing so hard I forgot I was under attack. I picked up my foot (think the original karate kid style crane kick) and everytime he jumped at my foot I pushed him right down on his back. I didn't get mad, I didn't move towards him. I stood my ground and gave him no attention other than knocking him down everytime he tried. It took a few minutes of my time but now he remembers who is at the top of the pecking order. Now if I even walk in his direction he moves out of the way. If I walk behind him towards the coop he runs right in like the good boy he always was. I just imagined it was like puberty.
Ps: "pluck pluck stew", that had me rolling! I'm going to have to borrow that.

Can you please give us some updates down the track, so we know how it goes?

Aggression can escalate a year or more from its beginning, so it would be really helpful to others in your situation if you give us some feedback long-term.

As far as I've seen, nobody who manages to temporarily gain respect manages to keep it. Some report back that it failed, and others simply never report back. Everyone saying it worked either has only had their success last a week or a month or some other short time period, or permanently cages them (hardly truly 'working', in that case, lol).

I had temporary successes too before I decided they were a waste of time due to how much extra time and effort the vicious animals were taking. They don't deserve more care and effort for their bad behavior, lol. And the risk is unacceptable.

If I persevered for enough generations I'm pretty sure I could succeed at breeding and training out the violence, but I can't risk children and other animals in the meantime for the sake of rehabilitating a nasty animal's family line. I've also yet to see the aggressive animal whose genetic contribution was worth it.

I would just like to add that what you've done there is a fine example of communicating in their language. Problem being we're not chickens and for them to attack us in the first place, they are either hyperaggressive (beyond reason or provocation) or species-confused. Plenty of roosters mount and try to mate with humans, particularly children and the feet/shoes of grownups, and plenty of hens squat for humans too, indicating both see humans as mates. You basically never see them squatting for dogs, cats, or other species. Sometimes other poultry, but that's about it. We don't look or act or sound like chickens, it's got to take a fair bit of confusion for them to react to us like we're poultry.

This I blame on the AI industry. Performing thousands of generations worth of artificial insemination is guaranteed to mess up their breeding instincts. It's messed up everything else, from social behavioral instincts to maternal instincts etc. It's no coincidence that the breeds most often showing sexual attraction to humans are those from the exact farming types known to have AI practiced on them sometimes to the complete exclusion of any normal matings. You see the same thing with Jersey and Holstein bulls too, who live separately and are used for AI more often than let out with the herd in many dairy establishments, who are now famed for their aggression to humans. Compare that to the average meat breed bull, i.e. Droughtmasters, who are notoriously so 'quiet' that toddlers can lead them around and play with them. They're mostly left out with the herd, and AI is not the main sexual interaction they experience in their lifetimes. AI isn't the root of all evil, lol. It's just not something that should ever be practiced as the main recourse when alternatives exist.

I only keep and breed roosters and hens who know that they're chickens, and that we're to be respected. If a rooster views you as a chicken he will either try to mate with you or attack you, and you can't fix that screwed up mentality in that individual's lifetime. It took a lot of interference to get them there, and it's no easy fix.

Rottnwarrier manages his / her birds in a similar manner to my method. Results are long-term and management is always ongoing. Stop fighting with, running from, rewarding with aggression with food. Also do not threaten the roosters family; remember you are handily the big guy but do not be part of the pecking order, Manage it from the outside.

Can you elaborate on this? It would help to know if you keep them caged.

I have to say, if 'results are long-term' but 'management is always ongoing' then it's not a permanent success, at least, not by my standards. My idea of 'success' is no attacks, ever, not constantly managing aggressive birds to avoid attacks.

Also, the chickens that attacked me were never rewarded with food or with me running away. It made no difference whatsoever. But then again they're rarely doing it for such simple rewards.

If they feel free to attack you, but don't fear you like a predator, then you're not somehow outside the pecking order. From a chicken's perspective, you can only really be one of a few things: you're either a human who looks after tame birds, which is the true position of being 'outside the pecking order' and is respected by any mentally balanced bird, or you're a predator getting attacked by tame birds, or you're another chicken getting reminded of his subordinate place. If they attack you and you don't kill them they know you're not a predator, so that kind of makes you another chicken. Certainly it doesn't leave room for you to be outside their pecking order.

Before, in the post you replied to, I was talking about roosters who simply never attack humans, not roosters who need 'managing' throughout their lifetimes, or throughout their descendants' lifetimes; this was the 'bad rooster management system' you said I was perpetuating. In light of what you posted last, this makes even less sense than before. Your management system might make more sense if there were some more details provided. Do you free range them, for example?

I stopped managing my aggressive ones precisely because it required ongoing management. No aggressive male (or female) is worth that long-term investment of time and resources, and allowing heightened risk not just to yourself but also to others, when there are so many good males out there. A nasty attitude doesn't inspire any poor-victim-needs-TLC-to-reform response in me.

I've been part of quite a few rooster-attacks threads and have yet to hear anyone claim the attacking-back/I'm-the-alpha-roo method works permanently, i.e. by stopping all attacks. Unfortunately rottnwarrior has a long way to go before we will know whether their method is working. Many people report it works initially, but never give a long term follow up. Using chicken language to take away their alpha spot and claim it as your own is hardly stepping outside their hierarchy and not really addressing the core issue, their willingness to assault you. What can a child do, or another human who is not physically able to take the alpha role by force or physical size/presence? For this reason I don't believe it's a true option in possibly most people's cases. It appears to make sense but I've yet to see it actually work permanently and for everyone in the family.

It's better in my experience to use mutual trust and healthy attachment as your guard against violence, not fear and aggression. But I'm open to the idea of there being many roads that lead to success, however I still stand by my points made in previous posts as I've yet to see any conclusive management successes of violent birds.

Best wishes to all.

 

[centrarchid]

Chooks4life your assessment of post you quoted in your post # 31 above is very inaccurate and the pattern relates to your ignorance of your husbandry impacts on subsequent behaviors or your birds.

My gamehens in the default state are very aggressive in the defense of their young. They give everything they have trying to repel you and go after your face as well. They would also chase me as a small child all the way back to house in effort to retrieve chick I stole. Additionally they would recruit the father gamecock and he would attack as well. Such was their genetically programmed default mode.

Now to make you rethink your position. I can have a hen hatch a brood of 8 chicks, take 4 from her to be hand-raised and leave the balance to be with her to be hen-raised. The hen-raised chicks will all grow up to be like their mother in response to me and the chicks will scream in terror when handled. In contrast the hand-raised, if done properly which is easy to do will be gentle around me bringing chicks to me literally to be inspected by hand and chicks will be calm. I can even work around a mature face-flogger to calm her down and work with her chicks because I know how through experience. All above applies to American Dominiques as well although behavioral modification due to my activities is not as pronounced.

What you call chicken aggression is a lot more complex than you realize. It is also easy to manipulate in a positive or negative manner. I can make a male or female chicken more aggressive largely because they remember past experiences. You and so many others are going to half to recognize your birds behavior is also very much a function of what you have done and do currently do around them.


All this applies to roosters as well.

 

[centrarchid]

Rottnwarrier manages his / her birds in a similar manner to my method. Results are long-term and management is always ongoing. Stop fighting with, running from, rewarding with aggression with food. Also do not threaten the roosters family; remember you are handily the big guy but do not be part of the pecking order, Manage it from the outside.

When I state long-term, that implies broodfowl and that can mean an individual will persist 5 to 10 years, sometimes longer. Birds kept through 4 years can be considered to be very valuable and they all have considerable potential for longevity.

 

[ChickieAnnD]

The only Silkie rooster that attacked me did so because he had been traumatized by a dog killing his mates when they were all a couple of months old (I've had silkies off and on for years). I put up with him long enough to be sure he wouldn't 'snap out of it' and then he went to chicken heaven.
So sorry about your guy but as has already been posted there are more males out there that need homes. You are in danger as well as anyone else. They just become sneakier and quicker and learn to go for the 'predator's' eyes.

 

[Bethel3330]

Thank you for your input @chooks4life. I'm paying more attention out there and I do think the dog is riling him up. He flapped his wings and puffed up in my vicinity yesterday and when I turn around to look he is squared up at the boxer through the chain link fence, though they are twenty feet apart, they are staring each other down. *sigh* so that was a major insight.
He comes to that area of the fence I mentioned before to meet me with their dinner, then walks alongside me to the coop. I really hope the running up behind me was a coincidence, because he really was standing there looking befuddled just as you described. Then again, there's a wild bird feeder at that corner of the fence. He very well could've been chasing a bird off! I didn't think of it until I saw him doing it yesterday! Lol
I was reluctant to put the coop back there because of the dogs. We have an area fenced off for them directly behind the house, then the coop is at the edge of the woods another 50 feet or so further back. It is good they're there, because the shade is helping keep their coop cool and they have so much cover when the hawks fly over, and they do a lot. Mine only range when we're home and they tend to stay out of sight of the neighbors yappers so far too.
I really hope, and think I do, have a good roo. He casually walks away and isn't fearful if I get too close while doing something. I happen to be a very paranoid momma myself, which is a good thing, and I don't want to trust any animal, particularly ones I'm new at keeping, with my little boy. So I'm reading what I can here about various behaviors and what to watch out for.
Thanks again!
Beth

 

[Stiggy]

Chooks4life your assessment of post you quoted in your post # 31 above is very inaccurate and the pattern relates to your ignorance of your husbandry impacts on subsequent behaviors or your birds.

My gamehens in the default state are very aggressive in the defense of their young. They give everything they have trying to repel you and go after your face as well. They would also chase me as a small child all the way back to house in effort to retrieve chick I stole. Additionally they would recruit the father gamecock and he would attack as well. Such was their genetically programmed default mode.

Now to make you rethink your position. I can have a hen hatch a brood of 8 chicks, take 4 from her to be hand-raised and leave the balance to be with her to be hen-raised. The hen-raised chicks will all grow up to be like their mother in response to me and the chicks will scream in terror when handled. In contrast the hand-raised, if done properly which is easy to do will be gentle around me bringing chicks to me literally to be inspected by hand and chicks will be calm. I can even work around a mature face-flogger to calm her down and work with her chicks because I know how through experience. All above applies to American Dominiques as well although behavioral modification due to my activities is not as pronounced.

What you call chicken aggression is a lot more complex than you realize. It is also easy to manipulate in a positive or negative manner. I can make a male or female chicken more aggressive largely because they remember past experiences. You and so many others are going to half to recognize your birds behavior is also very much a function of what you have done and do currently do around them.


All this applies to roosters as well.

I have to agree here @centrarchid I think while most of this information is correct this is in itself incorrect. Like you have said a broody hen will do almost anything to protect her babies or eggs. if you were to switch this round on humans then it would be the same for most mothers who have young or are carrying young. Its a hormonal things and is to be expected from them. it shows that they are being good mothers who want to protect their babies at all costs. generally its also a temporary thing as when the chicks get older the hen calms down and all is well again. My Silkies are all very placid and while you cannot pick all of them up to cuddle or anything they are not aggressive. however when they become broody their attitudes change, none have attacked me as I am not a threat to them but if someone else gets to close without me being there then they do get stroppy. and fair enough as well. they are just doing their job to protect their young. by the time the babies get to 8 weeks old the hen Is back to normal . Like you have said there is a huge difference between rooster aggression and broody hen aggression, which is also true. however if I was to get rid of every aggressive animal then I wouldn't have any hens since they all have or will go broody and that would be a giant waste and pointless.

 

[Pinkaboo]

[COLOR=800080]I have to agree here @centrarchid
 I think while most of this information is correct this is in itself incorrect. Like you have said a broody hen will do almost anything to protect her babies or eggs. if you were to switch this round on humans then it would be the same for most mothers who have young or are carrying young. Its a hormonal things and is to be expected from them. it shows that they are being good mothers who want to protect their babies at all costs. generally its also a temporary thing as when the chicks get older the hen calms down and all is well again. My Silkies are all very placid and while you cannot pick all of them up to cuddle or anything they are not aggressive. however when they become broody their attitudes change, none have attacked me as I am not a threat to them but if someone else gets to close without me being there then they do get stroppy. and fair enough as well. they are just doing their job to protect their young. by the time the babies get to 8 weeks old the hen Is back to normal . Like you have said there is a huge difference between rooster aggression and broody hen aggression, which is also true. however if I was to get rid of every aggressive animal then I wouldn't have any hens since they all have or will go broody and that would be a giant waste and pointless.[/COLOR]

Is the issue not that this cockerel has suddenly turned aggressive from being very affectionate?
Shouldn't that be a concern as it would if a pet dog suddenly turned on you and attacked you?
There wasn't any reason for the attack I don't think, it just turned aggressive, and stayed that way
Is there any benefit in having chickens as pets if you can't socialise and enjoy being with them
The owners enjoyment is important too, and if that owner doesn't have the skills to calm the cockerel
I think she needs to find an alternative

 

[Stiggy]

Is the issue not that this cockerel has suddenly turned aggressive from being very affectionate?
Shouldn't that be a concern as it would if a pet dog suddenly turned on you and attacked you?
There wasn't any reason for the attack I don't think, it just turned aggressive, and stayed that way
Is there any benefit in having chickens as pets if you can't socialise and enjoy being with them
The owners enjoyment is important too, and if that owner doesn't have the skills to calm the cockerel
I think she needs to find an alternative

You are correct, and we have gone off on a tangent. There should be some level of enjoyment and there shouldn't be any worry about turning your back on your flock. Although I cant say why he ha done this or anything like that but it is possible that he had a nasty streak in him and its only surfaced now

 

[Pinkaboo]

You are correct, and we have gone off on a tangent. There should be some level of enjoyment and there shouldn't be any worry about turning your back on your flock.  Although I cant say why he ha done this or anything like that but it is possible that he had a nasty streak in him and its only surfaced now

Maybe he's got a surge of testosterone and thinks he's arnie