2 yr old rooster has gone psycho

[centrarchid]

Birds trained for public service are simply maintained in public service capacity for 10 years. No sustained corrective management required, and if needed a which is usually within first year or two of life, then duration short.

For a heads up, for a living I am developing through selective breeding a domesticated population / cultigen / breed to be used by farmers for table-meat population. My starting point is based on wild source populations. I am well versed in time investments and genetics (quantitative and qualitative). You seem to be stepping away from theory concerning inheritance when interpreting my statements and then presenting answers that do not jive with my statements.

 

[jajeanpierre]

2) Is he standing his ground and flaring his hackles and interspersing this with outright attacks with spurs, wings and bill?

He is outright fighting you for rank and treats you as a conspecific. Based on most discussions this the assumed by keepers of man-fighters. Something is or has gone on that got him into mindset that you need to be and can be defeated so as to be a subordinate. Somewhere along the line you got too familiar with him and / or he learned through exploratory pecking he can make you retreat. This is particularly prevalent with folks that are uncomfortable around their birds. Even many experienced keepers are afraid of their birds for one reason or another and sometimes these people are prone to act aggressively against the birds and even bully them. This situation is more frequent than you might suspect and denial is often a part of the problem. Folks like this may need to visit with the equivalent of Alcohol Anonymous to work problem out. I have even seen people into gamefowl that are scared of their birds and they would be ready to fight you if you said they were such. Males in particular will take advantage of activities that make them feel tough. This is where genetics can also impact predisposition for man-fighting.

Prevention: Do not retreat from him when exploratory pecking or even flogging occurs. Do not attack him in response to an attack as it is very difficult to do so with appearing to alternate between bouts of attack and retreat like which occurs when birds fight.

Correction: Make so aggressive bird can engage you by fighting you but do nothing that would be interpreted as fighting back or retreating. Let him wail away (flog) which may last several minutes. If he breaks off attack, then move towards him but do not even give him the respect of eye contact. Do not strike or push him. Repeat until he stops. Process may need to be repeated in subsequent days with hardheaded birds. You want him to start thinking of you as something that is very much not another chicken. This may mean a flannel shirt or sweat shirt and jeans. Ideally you will appear the same as you do on other days so he does not test you for days when you are weak. If spurs are an issue which they can be with birds more than 18 months old, then they can be neutralized by removal, trimming or covering with the equivalent of boxing gloves (most laymen will not have last option owing to legal restrictions). An alternative to this approach can involve the restraint / time-out sessions where bird does not get the release associated with combat but does get a penalty he will learn to avoid. This technique does appear to work although it takes more time and is hard on birds that are flighty and prone to panic when restrained which is a form of stress.

Benefits of Behavior to You or Bird: Can be used to help sell a gamerooster to a fool. In a competitive breeding setting such as in a commercial flock more aggressive birds garner more fertilizations of eggs therefore tend to be more prolific. This not directly related to what is referred to as gameness in gamefowl.

On

Centrachid, What exacly do you mean by the statement above in bold?

I have two problematic young roosters, both about 15/16 months old. Meeting aggression with aggression isn't working out very well with the LF Ameraucana who will likely simply be culled. The other problematic rooster has just started being aggressive to me in the past few days but has shown aggression to my adult son for a few weeks before. I would like to see if simply changing my husbandry techniques could solve the problem. I would very much appreciate your input.

Background:
The bird is a double copy frizzle Cochin hatched March of last year. He is a hatchery bird. His being a double copy frizzle (carrying two copies of the frizzle gene) complicates his temperament. I have read in various articles that double copy frizzles are more flighty than a normal frizzle and the two double copies I have ARE spookier birds. The birds' feathers are severely compromised, breaking and falling out with very little handling of the bird. They both act as if handling them causes them pain. He is free ranging in my back yard with a same-aged Silkie rooster, six Silkie hens and a LF Polish hen. A week ago an Ameraucana from my LF flock in the front of my property hatched a clutch of chicks. I moved them into a pen and a dog-house coop in my back yard. Thursday, a Silkie hatched a chick in the back yard flock's nest box. Yesterday I moved that hen and chick to a little dog-house coop beside the other hen and chicks. She'll get out in a pen today.

Description of Attack:
In the past few weeks, this rooster has been making infrequent rushes/attacks on me. I responded as another rooster would (I'm new to chickens, so really don't know a whole lot of how another rooster really would respond), grabbing him by the hackles and holding him down for at most a minute. A few days ago, he started attacking me like a sparring rooster, which really was kind of funny-- tiny 2-pound rooster sparring with me. He stood there, head lowered, hackles flared six inches in front of my toes.

Meeting violence with violence has not worked at all with the LF Ameraucana, so obviously I need to change my tactics. Obviously I am doing something very wrong, probably both in my interactions with them before they show any inclination to attack and my response to their aggression. Obviously I need to change my behavior.

Your description #2 seems to very neatly fit this bird's attacks. So, are you saying that I simply allow him to attack and take it until he quits and then step forward towards him until he either keeps attacking or runs away?

The LF Ameraucana's attacks are a bit more complicated. I'm not sure I could physically stand getting flogged by him. He once hit me in the shins with his wings and it felt as if I had been kicked hard in the shins. I was surprised at how strong the hit was. The Cochin is only two pounds and has stunted wings (as a result of the double copy frizzle gene). His attacks will not be hard to take. Plus there is no risk of him leaping in my face which there is with the LF Ameraucana.

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

[6of6chicks]

Description of Attack:
In the past few weeks, this rooster has been making infrequent rushes/attacks on me. I responded as another rooster would (I'm new to chickens, so really don't know a whole lot of how another rooster really would respond), grabbing him by the hackles and holding him down for at most a minute. A few days ago, he started attacking me like a sparring rooster, which really was kind of funny-- tiny 2-pound rooster sparring with me. He stood there, head lowered, hackles flared six inches in front of my toes.

This may be a REALLY stupid question, but like I said - I'm new to birds. Does ignoring the behavior work with chickens? Sometimes with puppy training it works to ignore the unwanted behaviors and enthusiastically reward/praise the right behaviors. Smart dogs eventually learn they get what they want (usually attention) when they do what I want. I say sometimes - I've had some hard-headed pups (love those labs!

) who never give up. And I know, dogs are not birds. I'm just wondering if that strategy works? In this case, ignoring the 2-lb. rooster until he gives up. Let him carry on with his tantrum until he wears himself out and stops. As long as he can't hurt you (heavy jeans & boots, maybe?), would it do any harm to just ignore him? Would he ever get the message that his attacks won't work, so why bother trying? I don't if birds are even capable of that kind of learning - like I said, it might be a dumb question!

 

[Ganjaroo]

Sorry to (temporarily) change the subject, but I am now very worried about my roo and am in dire need of advice. I've asked about the red patch and broken feathers on his hind end before on this site, yet figured since so many experienced people are on this thread, I would ask here!
TODAY, my roo has been very lethargic and not eating. I am not sure if the redness and broken feathers, (which I've seen for a couple of months now..) are a part of this or not! I've checked for lice and mites, yet still do not see any. He does however, have flaky, white patches in this area as well which I have not noticed before.. but they do not look like eggs of mice or lice, just patches of (Im guessing) dead skin that flake off.
Nevertheless, he is obviously not feeling well AT ALL today, ..and I'm not sure what to do to help him. His combs and wattles are fine, so is his breathing. Anyone have some advice?? Please?

 

[Ganjaroo]

Well, I've read all I could find here on lethargic roos who are not eating, ..and all of them ended up dying. Now I am really worried. There is no chicken vet around here either, not even a regular vet on a Sunday, ..so I guess I will go to the feed store and see if they have anything to suggest. My poor boy. I simply have no idea what is going on here..

 

[jajeanpierre]

This may be a REALLY stupid question, but like I said - I'm new to birds. Does ignoring the behavior work with chickens? Sometimes with puppy training it works to ignore the unwanted behaviors and enthusiastically reward/praise the right behaviors. Smart dogs eventually learn they get what they want (usually attention) when they do what I want. I say sometimes - I've had some hard-headed pups (love those labs!

) who never give up. And I know, dogs are not birds. I'm just wondering if that strategy works? In this case, ignoring the 2-lb. rooster until he gives up. Let him carry on with his tantrum until he wears himself out and stops. As long as he can't hurt you (heavy jeans & boots, maybe?), would it do any harm to just ignore him? Would he ever get the message that his attacks won't work, so why bother trying? I don't if birds are even capable of that kind of learning - like I said, it might be a dumb question!

The strategy you describe--not rewarding an unwanted behavior--is called extinction. Since all animals only present a behavior because they get some kind of a reward for it, the theory is that if you do not give the reward, the behavior will extinguish itself. Before a behavior is extinguished, there is an "extinction burst" which is an increase of intensity and/or frequency of the behavior. Sometimes that extinction burst is intolerable to the people trying to train the animal. A good example is when a parrot screams for attention. My macaw can literally rattle windows, so if I had a screaming macaw I would NOT be able to tolerate an extinction burst of screaming.

In a lab, it is easy to never reinforce the unwanted behavior. It's not so easy in real life, especially if the behavior is something that needs immediate intervention for safety of person or property. If an animal has escalated the unwanted behavior with an extinction burst and you then give in once, you have trained the animal that it just needs to do the unwanted behavior more frequently and with more intensity, so you have actually made the problem worse than it started. This happens very often in the parrot world with screaming.

The other problem with using extinction as a training strategy is that you have to know what the reward really is. What I think the reward is might not be what the animal finds rewarding. The reward is what maintains the behavior.

[Extinction bursts are how behaviors are shaped when training animals. Suppose the desired behavior is a bird opening it's wings in a big eagle. You start by "catching" the slightest movement in the wings and reward. Soon the bird catches on that a reward follows movement in the wings. Once you have trained the bird to reliably move its wings for a reward, you stop rewarding that level of wing movement. The bird becomes frustrated that you changed the rules/criteria of the behavior so starts moving its wings more and more trying to find that sweet spot that got the reward. You only reward when the bird gives you a behavior that is closer to the desired behavior than the previous behavior you accepted and rewarded.]

 

[lovemy6hens]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It's the most intelligent discussion of rooster behavior I've read to date on BYC. I appreciate the divergent points of view and have found them each to be helpful in one way or another.
It's reassuring to know we made the right decision euthanizing our 8-month-old cockerel. He wasn't aggressive toward me, but he was toward other people. My husband says it was because I noticed the ever-so-subtle signs of aggression and reacted in such a way to prevent an attack. In other words, it was just a matter of time and a momentary lapse in my attention.
What did him in was his sudden change of behavior with his girls. He went from doing his normal rooster job to attacking them from the front and running over and flogging them from the back then running away.
As a chick, he imprinted on a sheet near the brooder and had recently started arranging it into a nest and he would then make broody hens sounds and a post-oviposition cackle when off his nest. My husband said maybe he was confused. Either way, something in his brain wasn't right and he had to go before he killed one of the girls.
He was my baby and we loved him very much. There is a deep sadness in our hearts, but it's tempered with the thought of a dead hen and then having to get rid of him. For us (emotions aside) it was clear: Is he doing his job as a rooster or is he not?

 

[subhanalah]

The strategy you describe--not rewarding an unwanted behavior--is called extinction.  Since all animals only present a behavior because they get some kind of a reward for it, the theory is that if you do not give the reward, the behavior will extinguish itself.  Before a behavior is extinguished, there is an "extinction burst" which is an increase of intensity and/or frequency of the behavior.  Sometimes that extinction burst is intolerable to the people trying to train the animal.  A good example is when a parrot screams for attention.  My macaw can literally rattle windows, so if I had a screaming macaw I would NOT be able to tolerate an extinction burst of screaming.

In a lab, it is easy to never reinforce the unwanted behavior.  It's not so easy in real life, especially if the behavior is something that needs immediate intervention for safety of person or property.  If an animal has escalated the unwanted behavior with an extinction burst and you then give in once, you have trained the animal that it  just needs to do the unwanted behavior more frequently and with more intensity, so you have actually made the problem worse than it started.  This happens very often in the parrot world with screaming.

The other problem with using extinction as a training strategy is that you have to know what the reward really is.  What I think the reward is might not be what the animal finds rewarding.  The reward is what maintains the behavior.

 [Extinction bursts are how behaviors are shaped when training animals.  Suppose the desired behavior is a bird opening it's wings in a big eagle.  You start by "catching" the slightest movement in the wings and reward.  Soon the bird catches on that a reward follows movement in the wings.  Once you have trained the bird to reliably move its wings for a reward, you stop rewarding that level of wing movement.  The bird becomes frustrated that you changed the rules/criteria of the behavior so starts moving its wings more and more trying to find that sweet spot that got the reward.  You only reward when the bird gives you a behavior that is closer to the desired behavior than the previous behavior you accepted and rewarded.]

I had to read this to my husband...He doesn't understand why I get so upset that he does what he does with rescue dogs....I would say easily 90% of dogs that came into rescue, at least part of it...was "screaming" in the crate. This is when a training tool goes bad in the hands of the novice who has not done proper due diligence before taking on the responsibility of a companion (or really any type of) animal.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I had to read this to my husband...He doesn't understand why I get so upset that he does what he does with rescue dogs....I would say easily 90% of dogs that came into rescue, at least part of it...was "screaming" in the crate. This is when a training tool goes bad in the hands of the novice who has not done proper due diligence before taking on the responsibility of a companion (or really any type of) animal.

[This is a little off topic from psycho roosters, but it does apply to training any animal--psycho rooster, dog, child or husband.]

That's the real drawback in trying to use extinction as a training strategy--it is just too easy to slip up and reward the behavior. The less frequently a behavior is rewarded, the more solidly the behavior is trained into the animal. I know, it sounds counter intuitive but it really isn't. Using a variable reinforcement strategy, the animal doesn't know if or when the reward will come, but history has shown that eventually the reward will come. Since it believes it will come, it will continue to exhibit the behavior.

I think everyone is familiar with extinction and extinction bursts, but are just not familiar with the scientific terminology for it. Think of a child that whines for something. The parent says no. If the child keeps whining, s/he may wear the parent down and the parent gives in just to stop the behavior. The child learns that if it whines long enough or loudly enough, it could get what it wants. If the parent had never given in, the child might whine long and loudly for some time, but if it is never rewarded for whining, it will abandon that strategy in favor of something else.

The trouble with using extinction as a training tool is that it is really easy to train the unwanted behavior into the animal. It works really well in a laboratory setting, but not so well in your home. Who can tolerate window shattering macaw screaming for more than a minute?

 

[subhanalah]

[This is a little off topic from psycho roosters, but it does apply to training any animal--psycho rooster, dog, child or husband.]

That's the real drawback in trying to use extinction as a training strategy--it is just too easy to slip up and reward the behavior.  The less frequently a behavior is rewarded, the more solidly the behavior is trained into the animal.  I know, it sounds counter intuitive but it really isn't.  Using a variable reinforcement strategy, the animal doesn't know if or when the reward will come, but history has shown that eventually the reward will come.  Since it believes it will come, it will continue to exhibit the behavior.

I think everyone is familiar with extinction and extinction bursts, but are just not familiar with the scientific terminology for it.  Think of a child that whines for something.  The parent says no.  If the child keeps whining, s/he may wear the parent down and the parent gives in just to stop the behavior.  The child learns that if it whines long enough or loudly enough, it could get what it wants.  If the parent had never given in, the child might whine long and loudly for some time, but if it is never rewarded for whining, it will abandon that strategy in favor of something else.

The trouble with using extinction as a training tool is that it is really easy to train the unwanted behavior into the animal.  It works really well in a laboratory setting, but not so well in your home.  Who can tolerate window shattering macaw screaming for more than a minute?

people hate when I compare my animals to their children.....