27% Duckling Starter?

[tia]

I fed this rescued Mallard ducking a wild starter food that was very high in protein and it did get Angel Wing. I don't know if it was the high protein diet, but I fed my other ducklings one with less protein and never had any trouble with Angel wing.

 

[Amiga]

Just to add some little experience here, along the lines of, "it apparently did no harm."

I added one part rolled oats, not instant, to five parts 27% turkey waterfowl starter for the first two weeks. I also started feeding finely chopped lettuce in an inch of water at about a week, and sprinkled chick grit lightly since day two. At about four weeks of age, I began bringing in a few slugs for snacks, before the weather was good enough for them to be outside catching their own.

I followed Storey's Guide for protein, since I was learning and it is a reputable source.

This was not a double-blind controlled experiment. All I can say is, with what I have been feeding them, they are apparently quite healthy as evidenced by their energy level, overall health - low incidence of any health problems, egg laying, and feather condition.

Could be they just have great genes.

When I make my final decisions on anything, it is based on Storey's Guide, the help from BYCers (bless you all), my background in biology, and my gut.

 

[Wifezilla]

Hiddenhill, I am basing my comments on science, research, and the natural diet of a duck in the wild. I am also basing it on the status of what passes as nutrition research these days. If you looked in to it you would be appalled. Many of the things we are told to do for our health and the health of our animals is based on not just flawed research, but outright fraud.

One example is the issue of saturated fat. About 30 years ago a man by the name of Ancel Keys published a report based on data for 7 countries showing that the more saturated fat a country eats, the higher the heart disease rate. He was well connected and managed to get political backing so the word was put out that we all need to eat less fat, particularly saturated fat. America cut their fat intake and switched from natural animal fats to vegetable oils. The result? An increased obesity rate, more cases of type 2 diabetes, more gout, arthritis, and cases of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (among other health problems). You see, Ancel Keys was a big manipulative jerk. There was data available from 22 countries when he did his study. There were some countries with high saturated fat intake and high heart disease, but there were also countries where there was high intake and very LOW heart disease. He just ignored whatever didn't fit his hypothesis and doomed several generations to diseases they otherwise might not have gotten. If you study the endocrinology, you would not fall for nonsense like that spouted by Ancel Keys. You would understand how the body and hormones actually function and realize his entire premise is ridiculous.

I see the same thing in animal studies. People studies often start with rat studies. I study the studies. How was it carried out? What methodology? Was more than one variable changed? (This happens A LOT!)

Here is an article from the city of Spokane, WA that puts the blame for angel wing squarely on carbohydrates...
http://www.spokanecity.org/services/articles/?ArticleID=1850

In the wild, a duck DOES NOT eat grain on a daily basis. It eats fish, bugs, worms and aquatic plants. What is the protein percentage of these natural foods? That should be your logical starting point when determining what is best for your ducks.

 

[katharinad]

And in the wild ducks exercise more and eat less quantities of food. They spend tons of time searching for food. So we are back at eating to much of the good stuff. Larger duck breeds are prone to issues with their legs etc, and fast growth makes it worse. I'm not talking about starving my ducks, but giving less can be a good thing. So in that regard it stinks that books only talk about percentage, but not quantity. Even Metzer keeps his ducks short on food when they are little. He watches their weight when they are growing and cuts back accordingly. I wish the books would give us charts as to how much each breed should weigh at what age. That way we can make better choices.

Ancel Keys was a big manipulative jerk, and a lawyer on top of it. He had no scientific background, but knew how to play the law into his favor. Because of him people are also avoiding eggs, because of "high cholesterol". Finally the USDA has budged somewhat from their diet recommendations. Still more needs to be done. You are right high carb diets are really bad in humans. Avoid the extra sugar and processed stuff and eat like our great grand parent did.

 

[duckluck]

Some good points, WifeZilla. A professor/doctor of Sociology who was one of my teachers at university also said herself that all too often, studies will show what the respective testers want them to show, therefore, she was not a fan of "studies show...". Sometimes we really do have to go back to brass tacks. I can tell you that one of my own doctors told me that with the whole "low sodium" craze, he actually had a patient put herself in a coma by cutting too much salt out of her diet. So much for ther ol' high blood pressure hysteria...lower blood pressure does no one any good if they are in a coma or brain dead.

 

[callducklover20]

My bag of Purina duck grower says 16% protein, I also give the new babies hard boiled eggs, plus their electrolyte/vitamin water-just saying what I do, no cases of bad legs or angelwing since Ive been using this food so I stick with it

 

[goosedragon]

Quote:
Well I have no idea of what great grand parents ate, but most of them worked their butt off and died at a young age. Did the hard work burn off the extra carbs? probably, so was it the diet or the hard work that killed them at a young age. I know young runners (humans not ducks) who eat a lot of carbs which they burn off in their running programs. I think the biggest mistake people make is assuming that one diet is best for all people, I think diet needs to be adjusted for differences in age, sex and activity.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I have to agree here.
I personally have raised over 100 species of migratory waterfowl for many many years, 25 to be exact. Even in them, in a closed pen environment, extreme high protein feeds regardless of what may be said, always caused problems, period. The only exceptions are the fish eaters and sea duck which solely base their natural diet off animal protien. The other species would always have joint problems or angle wing on feeds over 18-20%. I'm not a scientist by no means, but years of personal experience with this issue have convinced me of it. Same can be said in the peafowl and turkey growers. High protein,= bad knees, just ask one of them.
Yes in the wild, they need it because they are not fat little mongrels sitting around all day just waiting on their next feeding. They are constantly flying, foraging, escaping predators, etc, ie burning it all off.
Also, this being a domestic breed thread, no domestic breeds are "wild" related in their dietary needs, most are to be classed a dabbler species which, eat more plant matter than animal content, thus a lower protein intake. Wild species like mergansers, goldeneyes, and smew are different, but you'll never see a wild Peking chasing down fish on a regular basis, LOL.
As for scientific research, well they can make those results come out however they wish, honestly, just depends on who is doing the test and what they want the outcome to be. Think back, eggs use to be great for your health, then they were killers, then good again, etc...

 

[CityChicker]

There is very little research out there about Angel wing. What research has been done though and pretty much any scholarly references I have seen to Angel wing indicate excess protein being the primary culprit. I haven't seen one legitimate reference point to carbohydrates (sorry Wifezilla, LOL). A comment made by one parks department worker does not mean much in my opinion, nor do the observations of breeders or duck keepers that have only kept a few ducks. Even in your case, Wifezilla, you do not *only* feed your birds that commercial feed with the high protein. You do feed them other things as well that might alter the results (not to mention again the fact that sweeping generalization cannot be made when only a few birds have been kept).

Literally every major breeder of waterfowl in the entire world says that excess protein (and overfeeding) is the culprit. I will have to defer to people that have raised hundreds of thousands of ducklings. What scholarly studies have been done (including one with Canada Geese that I have frequently seen referenced) clearly indicate protein to be the problem. This has been my personal observation as well when I have tested whether or not protein might be the culprit. I have had birds begin to develop Angel wing even when only 20% protein was fed unrestricted and with no access to other feeds (something we never do under normal circumstances). In contrast, birds fed the 20% feed cut with oats to bring down the protein level and no other feeds did *not* develop Angel Wing. I did this over the summer with two groups of 15 Runners, each from the same parent birds. Out of 30 birds, 15 in each group, only 4 in the higher protein group began to develop Angel wing. The point is that without a controlled study and a reasonable sized sampling, a person can draw very few conclusions.

Anyway, I would love to study this in more detail when I have the time to construct a more scientific study with even larger groups of birds and even more controls in place. To me, there is very little doubt that protein is a major causative factor. Again, I have to trust the opinions of people that have raised hundreds of thousands of waterfowl. I respect that Wifezilla knows a lot about nutrition, but it is a big mistake in my opinion to think that what applies to people applies to all animals. There are plenty of situations in which something acts one way with an animal and another way entirely with a human. One common example that I have used before is catnip. It is a stimulant to cats, but a sedative to humans. Likewise, humans are not birds. We may not be able to apply all we know about human nutrition to birds as if their bodies will react the same.

 

[katharinad]

I totally agree with CityChicker. Mine are getting 16% regardless of age and that is it.