6-day old chick- enlarged crop

[threehorses]

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If the crop is impacted, the grit might actually stay there in the crop. If it's slowed, it'll stay there til more food passes. And yes - it only has an effect on food that gets into the gizzard which is 2 steps past the crop.

It can have an effect on the crop in that a gizzard not properly armed for the food it's receiving will not break food down enough, which will slow down the digestive tract, which will in turn slow down the crop. So there's that relationship.

For older birds, pigeon grit is also a wonderful choice and is iodized. But "these days" granite grit is available in convenient small bags from Manna-Pro. You can even order them online as they're not very heavy at all! Our local feedstores nearly all carry it as apparently the livestock supply vendors have been pushing it. And for good reason -it's nice stuff.

Sounds good about her crop being more normal. It takes a while for them to shrink back to normal if they've been distended for a bit.

As for sour crop, you shouldn't have a problem with it but always watch for it anyway in times of stress. (Smell her breath.)

As for the yogurt/applesauce, if you want to start to taper it off I don't see why not if she's returning to normal. Just get ready to increase it slightly if you see a change again. Then you can use the special stuff once in a while to just give their system a sort of a tune-up.

On the leaves, on the bedding in general, the reason for the concern of leaves it the chance for mildew and brooder aspergillosis mainly. They should all remain dry or be removed promptly.

At the risk of being a fussybudget, 'composting' the leaves for you in the brooder is gambling. Composting afterwards is certainly awesome!

 

[HickChick Wannabe]

Thanks for the help! Not much free time, today, but I'll take it all under consideration and post updates.

 

[HickChick Wannabe]

My little Black Star baby was looking much better this morning! I didn't have time to catch her and feel her crop, but it wasn't visible and that is a big improvement! If she continues to look good, I'll probably finish the applesauce with some yogurt tomorrow, leave it at that for now.

I found Rooster-Red's old thread on this topic and found that if food is withheld, they tend to gorge when they do have access to it. Well, I did start withholding it, because if it wasn't passing out of the crop, I didn't want her to keep adding to it and also I didn't want moist food sitting around at such high temps very long. Once she escaped her cardboard box within the brooder and rejoined the others and their constant food supply, her crop started to go down. So it seems I may have been contributing to the problem.

Live and learn.

Thanks for helping me through this everyone! Lots of great advice, threehorses!

 

[threehorses]

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You know I hadn't really thought of that - the withholding/gorging relationship. But it makes sense. I've always thought that they should have food, but just food that falls apart very easily so that it can drizzle through and feed them. I think that if a sick bird wants to eat, hey - thank heavens - let them eat! Just something that won't compound the problem. But I've had people say "can I withhold the food - maybe that will help" and I hadn't seen the harm, but now I'm rethinking that. I'll remember that so thank you for helping me to see something new from a new angle.

I'm glad to have been part of the team that helped you! Please let us know how she does, will you?

 

[Glenda L Heywood]

basically I always found that for two weeks using the slice of bread soaked in milk twice daily helped the crop situation immensly and that is what I did after flushing the crop of a bird with impacted crop
email me any questions

 

[HickChick Wannabe]

You're welcome, threehorses!

So there have been no more problems with the crop, yay! She still looks pathetic, missing some fuzz on her body, where her wings rest (not sure what that's about?), but otherwise fine.

Now my one of my hens from last year (my favorite; isn't it always the favorite?) appears to have avian pox. And who's advise do I find regarding it, but threehorses!

So I'm researching it, but if there's anything in particular you'd like to advise, feel free! How hard is it on young chicks? I can delay the introduction of the chicks to the hens as long as I can, but since mosquitoes are the likely source (we have about a trillion of them

) the chicks can still get it that way.

I'm also finding some black, tarry poo in the yard. I can't tell if it's all from one hen, all the time, or from each of the 6 hens, but only occasionally, so I'm not sure if I should be concerned about that. Treat with pro-biotics and pre-biotics? Is there any connection between that and the avian pox?

 

[threehorses]

Oh I'm the pox queen at the moment actually. Good timing.

I'm going to post at the bottom of this something I just posted on another thread on pox. This person was losing birds during pox (which to me is unusual with dry pox, the usual scabby form). So disregard the bits about losing birds. The emphasis is on the supportive care as really this is a virus and there's nothing we can do but support, pick and treat scabs (throw them away in a bag or burn them as scabs are a vector, a method of spreading), and hope it ends soon.

So your emphasis will be on nutrition, keeping them comfortable and eating, and treating scabs to prevent secondary infection. Nothing much can be done about the mosquitoes although I'm hearing people using garlic oil in olive oil on the wattles and combs. Might be a thought on the birds that don't have it yet for mosquitos? Or just to prevent other things mosquitoes might bring?

OK, here's the other post. But in the mean time please let us all know if there's anything else you need. And do please let us know how it's going with them.

I'm very glad to hear that your baby stopped having crop issues. Phew! Good news! Thank you so much for letting us know!

------post by NR on pox------
Here's an actual article that might help. https://www.backyardchickens.com/LC-diseases-AvianPox.html

Have you checked inside the beaks of your birds? Usually dry pox (which sounds like the version you're describing) doesn't cause mortalities.

The thing with pox is that while it may not be terribly harmful in itself, it lowers the immune system and thus leaves the birds susceptible to other secondary conditions. I suspect if you truly have dry pox (which we'll determine after throat exams to rule out wet pox) then you're having an issue with a secondary issue. That issue needs to be found and corrected.

In all cases where immune systems are compromised (which is anything from stress to illness), it's always a wise practice (and necessary in my opinion) to boost the immunity and nutrition and hydration of your flock.

First, hydration - they should all be drinking. Pox in the summertime can be uncomfortable to birds, but it's a time where they really should be keeping hydrated. The heat stress is in itself enough to kill a bird, much less a compromised one.

Second, in order for the body to fight its best fight, it has to have fuel. Birds who don't feel well often don't eat as heartily as those who do. As a result, they aren't getting as much nutrition at a time when they really need more. Because of this, any time I see "lethargy" I boost fuel. That means providing richer and more nutrient-available foods without changing the main 90% of the diet, which should remain consistent for the sake of their bacterial load.

Foods I'll add as the last 10% of the diet are boiled/mashed/wetted eggs, plain unflavored yogurt (1 teaspoon per day at least per adult bird - no more than 2 tablespoons - graduate down for smaller birds), sometimes a bit of babyfood applesauce (to keep their digestive tract flowing but not flowing too fast - also helps keep the bacteria in their guts happy), and sometimes I use medicated starter in older birds (as their less than 10% or even their 90% if they won't eat their regular food) because of its richness of nutrition and coccidiostatic activity.

I also like to use organic apple cider vinegar in their water as this time to help get their digestive tract pH back in line for the benefit of good bacteria and the detriment of the bad. (1 teaspoon per gallon of water.) The reason I use organic is not because of the philosophy, but because of its manufacturing process which is bacterial, not chemical. The "mother" of the vinegar (beneficial bacteria) are still in the vinegar. That's the "gunk" at the bottom - the good stuff.

If the birds at all look anything less than spunky and constantly hungry, I would also recommend vitamins - not in the water, but by mouth. Enfamil polyvisol non-iron formula (CVS stores has that formula) contains a healthy dose of vitamin A which is a very beneficial vitamin when fighting pox. It also contains other vitamins to support immunity and antioxidants. Two to three drops in the beak of the bird depending on size daily during stress, illness, treatment.

This combination of foodstuffs will help give them energy and the 'tools' to fight the infection better.

For feeding the eggs, etc, feed it first thing in the morning as their first meal. You can wet it slightly, but I usually find birds are more offended at sticky than slightly wet. So start dry and find out how much moisture you can add til they eat it.

In the mean time, i would highly recommend examining the rest of the body thoroughly to try and rule out some secondary issue. Be sure to check how meaty their keel area is (their "keel score"). They shouldn't have a protruding keel like a spatula - it should be more like the keel of a boat where you can feel the keel bone, but with nice rounded firm flesh to either side. Not too mushy, not too thin.

Also check them carefully for parasites. A combination of parasites (mites, lice) and pox is deadly. Check them at night as mites often come out at night and hide during the day. Use a flashlight and a light sheet/pillowcase as you ruffle through their feathers, looking carefully at their skin and feather shafts. Pay particular attention to the backs of their necks and their vent area. Rule parasites out for more peace of mind. If you find parasites, you must not only treat the bird (dusting - permethrins - poultry dust) but also your premises (dusting - nestboxes, bedding, under the bedding, cracks in the wood, etc) with a permethrin. DE is a prevention method and not a treatment of actual infestations. You can use DE to good effect for long term maintenance.

So summary:
check their throats and roof of their mouths for wet pox signs
boost their nutrition
make sure they're drinking and keeping cool
rule out other issues like parasites or weight loss
treat the scabs as outlined in the above-listed site (pick and treat w/iodine)

Please let us know what you find and how it's going. Thank you, and good luck!
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[HickChick Wannabe]

"Pox Queen", lucky you!

Thanks again! Time for a shopping trip. And thanks for the bit about the scabs! Hadn't come across that, nor thought of it.

What causes the disease to become the wet form? Is it the natural progression in a weak bird that's not strong enough to fight it?

Thanks for taking the trouble to answer all these questions!

 

[threehorses]

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Lol yeah what a wonderful title to have, huh?

You're welcome! It's my pleasure. And yeah - I had to learn about pox ages ago and I had read that the scabs are a vector. That explains a lot.

In both forms, the virus triggers an excessive growth of cells. In the dry form, that happens on the wattles, comb, and even sometimes the legs of a bird. It happens in non-feathered delicate skin. In the wet form, that trigger takes place in the mucosa of the bird instead. What makes one trigger dry and the other trigger wet, I'm not sure. I couldn't really find anything on it and have never seen anything written up. I have a few texts that I can review and I think I might just to solve the mystery, if it's solved.

I'm glad I can be of help, always!

p.s. I thought pox in chickens was bad. But this year I had my first case in turkey poults. They've "thrown the red" already, so they ahve a lot of unfeathered area on their heads. Their little carbuncles were just absolutely covered with the lesions. It was the first time I've had a case of pox where I actually was frightened. But they're clearing up now, thankfully, and they never at all got lethargic. Thus my new title. lol

 

[HickChick Wannabe]

Yes, wonderful!

What's "thrown the red"? Glad they're clearing up now! Not the most, er, pleasant disease to deal with. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html

Poor things.

Goldie's still active and acting normal, her "warts" are still white, and she's still laying. How slowly does this disease progress?