A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[capayvalleychick]

Are side sprigs a dominant or recessive trait? Are they purely genetic or is there an environmental component? Of my 6 juveniles with excellent feet, 5 have side sprigs on their combs.

I can curse in 3 languages, by the way.

Looking forward to my first "fancy" chicken show this week in Ohio.
Bet wishes to all,
Angela

I'll tell you my experience with side sprigs. I culled all the birds with visible side sprigs, two years ago. I am still getting quite a few chicks with them, even though I cull every single bird with them and the breeders have normal combs.
Would that make it a recessive trait? I doubt that it's environmental.

If I ever get to the point where I have enough good birds to cull the producers of side sprigs, that's what I will do.

 

[Wisher1000]

Angela, are you going to the Ohio Nationals in Columbus?

 

[neopolitancrazy]

If I ever get to the point where I have enough good birds to cull the producers of side sprigs, that's what I will do.

I currently plan to incubate 50 eggs from the Urch pair again, then swap the cock for my sprig-free cockerel, wait a month and incubate another 50 eggs. I am sorry to hear this is a problem for you, too, Kim. Perhaps your Canadian genetics will fix this trait for you.

Angela, are you going to the Ohio Nationals in Columbus?

Yes, indeed, I am going to the Ohio Nationals, hoping to meet some of you senior chicken fanciers there.
Bet wishes,
Angela

 

[bnjrob]

Are side sprigs a dominant or recessive trait? Are they purely genetic or is there an environmental component? Of my 6 juveniles with excellent feet, 5 have side sprigs on their combs.

I can curse in 3 languages, by the way.

Looking forward to my first "fancy" chicken show this week in Ohio.
Bet wishes to all,
Angela

I've seen stuff that says it is dominant and other stuff that says recessive. All I can say is that I have had it pop up in birds when their parents did not have side sprigs. And I have also had a side sprig that didn't pop up on one of my breeding males until he was two years old. Go figure. It's a pain in the butt for sure.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
This is a great argument for breeding from older birds, not cockerels and pullets.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Every year I enjoy the shows, and every year I realize that large fowl are in trouble. As Matt Llamon put it, "they're dying a slow death." In New England, the top large fowl are: Salmon Faverolles, Light Brahmas, Australorps, Anconas, White Dorkings, WC Blk Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, White Wyandottes, Dominiques, Buff Cochins, Buff Orpingtons, NHs and Langshans. Of all of them, only the Faverolles, Brahma, Anconas, Dorkings, Australorps, and Langshans are being bred in a strong enough number to ensure continued success. Each one only really has one steward. Two stewards in particular maintain four of these breeds. That's not a very base. There are, perhaps, some upcoming Barnevelders if the breeder is able to maintain focus.

I bet nationally it would be hard to come up with a list of 50 hard core large fowl breeders that specialize and maintain a strong program. Indeed, at a meeting after the Boston show, some people were just calling a spade a spade, and some think that large fowl are doomed.

One reason is that it's just not as cheap as bantams. Brian Knox likes to quote Harry Halbach who used to say that the cost ratio is 5:1. I've seen it; 'tis hard to ignore.

Another huge problem is the lack of specialization, which is the only way these breeds were ever developed. People are so often more concerned with variety than with quality.

Too many people are wooed by junk novelty; they prefer margarine over butter because they like the commercial. At the Boston show, there were some Bredas on display. Greenfire Farms strikes again. They were junk--absolute, undeniable, utter junk--genetically pathetic. I wonder how much that folly cost? They're never going to amount to anything. The best they offer is a laugh to all of us who are going, "Oh, geesh." It's too bad, another potential breeder lost.

I think that, in the never ending quest to be unique, people are so often drawn to the most obscure breeds or the most obscure variety. They end up selecting something for which their limited resources are never going to be sufficient to achieve success. Many times they're selecting breeds that were never important, which means they were never developed to a high level of quality in the first place.

So, why this reality check?

Well, I believe that only through honesty can anything of value be accomplished, and honesty allows us to observe, respect, diagnose, and act.

First of all, some breeds and many varieties are going to fail. They're going to disappear, and that's OK. They represent a time period that is no more, a time when fowl were so common that there were genetics, know-how, and poultry-friendly resources to burn. That time is past.

Secondly, it takes an enormous dose of honesty to assess one's situation and realize what one is willing and able to accomplish.

Something else to consider, is that rebels constitute, perhaps, the single largest group of conformists. I have seen through years of serving as an educator that the rule is to rebel, to not listen, to not learn, to not put into practice, to cling to willful ignorance. The unique individual is the rare one who listens closely and obeys, who is more concerned with achievement and quality than constant self-assertion without reflection. In poultry, this sort of "rebellion" leads to dissolution. As one judge and waterfowl breed put it after the Boston show, "How many come to understand? Maybe two out of thousands." Everyone just nodded in agreement. If one plays the game long enough, one realizes that poultry breeding is like a revolving door issuing in one trade off after another; our collective poultry genetics get passed left and right in an unending game of experimentation and whim, and with each pass the stock declines in value and substance.

So what is needed?

First and foremost, commitment and stability are the keys.

It takes multiple breeding seasons to begin to understand your stock.

It takes a mentor to keep you from exacerbating your genetics in the multiple years it takes to get to know your breed. It takes a village to raise a child and a team to breed a good chicken

It demands specialization, requires it unapologetically, and withholds all progress until it is the force behind the breeding program.

It takes continuous education in research and hands on experience, a huge portion of it to be had at shows.

It requires an ear to listen and tenacity to implement

The rewards?

Success in breeding birds that improve

A beautiful flock of birds that stuns even the uninitiated by the sheer force of their beauty and symmetry

A community of peers of like regard who take genuine interest in your endeavors and who are your best cheerleaders and guides

The fun and confidence that come from mastery

 

[Fentress]

I got Duckworth line BR, this year and I am thoroughly enjoying them. They are inherently beautiful in their soundness of structure/conformation. Even friends of mine who know nothing comment on it. I hope that I can live with their overall production qualities. I am more than willing to make compromises in order to have these birds on my property and I enjoy the history of BR and other American Class breeds. I think some breeds would benefit by having a larger community of people interested in them.

 

[fowlman01]

This is now year four with these birds. Today I added a few more birds to the pen for the winter months so there are three more in the pen that were not used for the test breeding. I tried to crop them out of the photos of the cockerel and the hens used for the test breeding.

Photos of the Columbian Wyandotte 11 month old cockerel from whom I have currently gathered and am hatching test eggs. I've tried to post photos from all angles. Some of the hens appear in the photos too.
He has been in molt but is filling out nicely. He has a full hand width between his bright yellow legs. He weighed 7.6 pounds when I penned him with the hens and has maintained that while breeding. He has nice white edging on both hackle and coverts.

I like the way he holds his wings tightly closed . I would have liked to get a photo of his wings spread out so you could see the razor sharp contrast of color on the primaries....but my one hand was holding the camera and I can't lift much yet.


His tail is nice and wide and he has a nice white section between his neck and his tail. The sun is washing out his feathering in some of these pictures....


He has what I think is a nice round body with a wide back. While his comb follows the contour of his head, I am a little concerned about the bumps on his comb...it is not as smooth as his sire's. The hens have nicer combs. I will definitely be focusing on combs with his chicks.



A few more photos of the hens...this first picture is the two year old hen that is still in molt . The hen on the right in the second photo is still growing in feathers after her molt and the others are still getting their full complement of tail feathers..

This 3 year old hen has darker down and darker hackle feathers than I would like, but she has good type, comb and legs. Same hen on the left in the second photo ...different lighting. She is the cockerel's mother and was one of the original 5 hens in the flock when I started with the breed.

If you notice things I have been blind to in these photos, please alert me. I would appreciate the comments and any input.
I still have a long way to go with these birds but I think I'm beginning to see a little progress in building the barn......

In the close up picture of the comb you could have a DQ. It looks like there are two spikes/leaders.

Walt

 

[bnjrob]

This is a great argument for breeding from older birds, not cockerels and pullets.

Yes it is. Doesn't work that well though when you're just trying just to get more birds alive and on the ground because you just can't easily replace any if they get killed in the first two years of life. Such is the life of raising a bird that is not that easy to find to start with. Most of what I will be working with from here on out is 2-3 years old birds. Except for the new bloodline that I have that requires me to again just get more numbers on the ground.

 

[bnjrob]

Every year I enjoy the shows, and every year I realize that large fowl are in trouble. As Matt Llamon put it, "they're dying a slow death." In New England, the top large fowl are: Salmon Faverolles, Light Brahmas, Australorps, Anconas, White Dorkings, WC Blk Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, White Wyandottes, Dominiques, Buff Cochins, Buff Orpingtons, NHs and Langshans. Of all of them, only the Faverolles, Brahma, Anconas, Dorkings, Australorps, and Langshans are being bred in a strong enough number to ensure continued success. Each one only really has one steward. Two stewards in particular maintain four of these breeds. That's not a very base. There are, perhaps, some upcoming Barnevelders if the breeder is able to maintain focus.

I bet nationally it would be hard to come up with a list of 50 hard core large fowl breeders that specialize and maintain a strong program. Indeed, at a meeting after the Boston show, some people were just calling a spade a spade, and some think that large fowl are doomed.

One reason is that it's just not as cheap as bantams. Brian Knox likes to quote Harry Halbach who used to say that the cost ratio is 5:1. I've seen it; 'tis hard to ignore.

Another huge problem is the lack of specialization, which is the only way these breeds were ever developed. People are so often more concerned with variety than with quality.

Too many people are wooed by junk novelty; they prefer margarine over butter because they like the commercial. At the Boston show, there were some Bredas on display. Greenfire Farms strikes again. They were junk--absolute, undeniable, utter junk--genetically pathetic. I wonder how much that folly cost? They're never going to amount to anything. The best they offer is a laugh to all of us who are going, "Oh, geesh." It's too bad, another potential breeder lost.

I think that, in the never ending quest to be unique, people are so often drawn to the most obscure breeds or the most obscure variety. They end up selecting something for which their limited resources are never going to be sufficient to achieve success. Many times they're selecting breeds that were never important, which means they were never developed to a high level of quality in the first place.

So, why this reality check?

Well, I believe that only through honesty can anything of value be accomplished, and honesty allows us to observe, respect, diagnose, and act.

First of all, some breeds and many varieties are going to fail. They're going to disappear, and that's OK. They represent a time period that is no more, a time when fowl were so common that there were genetics, know-how, and poultry-friendly resources to burn. That time is past.

Secondly, it takes an enormous dose of honesty to assess one's situation and realize what one is willing and able to accomplish.

Something else to consider, is that rebels constitute, perhaps, the single largest group of conformists. I have seen through years of serving as an educator that the rule is to rebel, to not listen, to not learn, to not put into practice, to cling to willful ignorance. The unique individual is the rare one who listens closely and obeys, who is more concerned with achievement and quality than constant self-assertion without reflection. In poultry, this sort of "rebellion" leads to dissolution. As one judge and waterfowl breed put it after the Boston show, "How many come to understand? Maybe two out of thousands." Everyone just nodded in agreement. If one plays the game long enough, one realizes that poultry breeding is like a revolving door issuing in one trade off after another; our collective poultry genetics get passed left and right in an unending game of experimentation and whim, and with each pass the stock declines in value and substance.

So what is needed?

First and foremost, commitment and stability are the keys.

It takes multiple breeding seasons to begin to understand your stock.

It takes a mentor to keep you from exacerbating your genetics in the multiple years it takes to get to know your breed. It takes a village to raise a child and a team to breed a good chicken

It demands specialization, requires it unapologetically, and withholds all progress until it is the force behind the breeding program.

It takes continuous education in research and hands on experience, a huge portion of it to be had at shows.

It requires an ear to listen and tenacity to implement

The rewards?

Success in breeding birds that improve

A beautiful flock of birds that stuns even the uninitiated by the sheer force of their beauty and symmetry

A community of peers of like regard who take genuine interest in your endeavors and who are your best cheerleaders and guides

The fun and confidence that come from mastery

True!

Went to our first show, as spectators, a few weeks ago. By far the largest number of birds were bantams. The large fowl shown....very little breed diversity. Australorps and Orpingtons were pretty popular. There were LOTS of Cream Legbars (maybe made up a third to a half of the large fowl there), which I figure the breeders were showing them to try to garner interest because they want to get them into the SOP. A few Barred Rocks, a couple New Hampshires, a handful of RIRs. A few Brahmas and Cornish. Those are the ones that I really remember either because they had some decent ones or some that weren't that great.

There was what looked like a number of hatchery stock birds there - particularly in the BRs and the RIRs. Was amazed at the dearth of different breeds represented - it was kinda sad actually. Wishing now that we had gone as exhibitors because there weren't any Javas there at all. And even though our Javas still need work, I think some of our birds look better than some of the other breeds that were there. I'm not an expert on the SOP of other breeds, but it was obvious in some groups of birds that there was a lot of variation in body types and size that screamed "hatchery" to me. The bantams were by far in much better shape than the large fowl.

Definitely gotta figure out how to reach more people and help them see the value in preserving these old birds.