A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Tumbleweed Farm]

 Hi, 
 Oh what  lovely hackle! Pretty boy! Who are you going to breed him to?
 Best,
 Karen

Ill decide early Spring. I have a couple of nice hens. I culled a few hens.

 

[Pasturedpeeps]

I have read though this entire thread and found it fascinating. The more I read the more I realized what it takes to truly breed to the standard. Because of this I have found myself at a cross roads and could use some advice.
I have built a small egg business on hatchery stock Rhode Island Reds and they have been good to me. But over the years I slowly realized that I need better control over the variability of my birds’ size and egg-laying ability in order to take my business to the next level. With this in mind and as a beginner I resolved to start breeding to the SOP with the birds I already have. I have an old SOP book and have used that as my staring place.
I understand that I’m starting with junky birds. But I’ve got to start somewhere. I was one season into this project when stumbled on the RIR thread. After reading it through and through I realized I don’t like the shape of true type RIRs, or at least I didn’t like the look birds pictured there. A little bit of a bummer.
So my question is this: After a lot of thought and research, I’m considering breeding my birds to the Java standard because it is similar to but just enough different enough from the RIR. Could I call them Red Javas? I know this could be sacrilege but I like everything about the RIR except the shape. I’m not dug in on this, however, and could easily move in a different direction with different birds. Just thought I would see what your reactions would be.

 

[Wisher1000]

Hello and welcome to BYC.

My best advice to you is to stick with standard birds and not to try to re-invent the wheel (or in this case, the Javas.) There is nothing wrong with breeding your (what I am assuming from your description is) production reds and working at improving their egg laying (production) but you will not be inventing a new breed. If the Java is what you like, buy the best quality, standard pair (or trio, or quad...) from a reputable breeder and work on improving production while maintaining the standard. If you like the birds you have, keep them, but don't try to make them into something they are not. You will not enjoy it as much as you think. Good luck in whatever you decide.

Wisher

 

[bnjrob]

I have read though this entire thread and found it fascinating. The more I read the more I realized what it takes to truly breed to the standard. Because of this I have found myself at a cross roads and could use some advice.
I have built a small egg business on hatchery stock Rhode Island Reds and they have been good to me. But over the years I slowly realized that I need better control over the variability of my birds’ size and egg-laying ability in order to take my business to the next level. With this in mind and as a beginner I resolved to start breeding to the SOP with the birds I already have. I have an old SOP book and have used that as my staring place.
I understand that I’m starting with junky birds. But I’ve got to start somewhere. I was one season into this project when stumbled on the RIR thread. After reading it through and through I realized I don’t like the shape of true type RIRs, or at least I didn’t like the look birds pictured there. A little bit of a bummer.
So my question is this: After a lot of thought and research, I’m considering breeding my birds to the Java standard because it is similar to but just enough different enough from the RIR. Could I call them Red Javas? I know this could be sacrilege but I like everything about the RIR except the shape. I’m not dug in on this, however, and could easily move in a different direction with different birds. Just thought I would see what your reactions would be.

Why would you want to call them *Red Javas*? Are you planning on selling them as *Red Javas*? You said that you have an egg business - you don't need to name them at all in order to sell eggs, unless your idea of taking things to the next level is to sell birds. You are free to breed your birds any way that you want them to look of course. But I have to wonder about your motives for feeling that you need to give them a different name.

Calling them *Red Javas* is not going to give you credibility among poultry fanciers. I breed Javas and frankly, I am not impressed by the number of people out there already, who are trying to come up with new colors of Javas either because they are looking to make a name for themselves, or they want to make money by selling their new creation to unsuspecting people who are mesmerized by a flashy feather duster on legs. By the way, there is already someone who has created an *Auburn Java* - don't get me started. The Java world really does not need more people trying to make up their own new colors. Javas nearly went extinct before, and it could happen again. Few Java owners are actually doing serious SOP/utility breeding and it only hurts a rare breed when more people come in wanting to further dilute the number of breeders by trying to add in yet another color variety when there aren't enough breeders of the currently accepted color varieties.

I would recommend that you really look at what it is you are trying to accomplish with your business. You're talking about wanting to take your business to the next level. But then you're talking about wanting to do breeding that is more labor intensive and completely changing how your birds look while also possibly getting different birds. Depending on what you are considering to be this *next level*, you need to be sure that your other desires are going to be compatible with your business plan.

For one thing, Javas, and some other heritage breeds, are not going to give you the egg production that you get with hatchery stock Production Reds. So if you're wanting to make money by selling quantities of eggs, then I would recommend that you stick with whatever hatchery birds you have that will be the egg laying machines you need to make a profit for your egg business.

SOP breeding is not something you can expect to make big bucks off of. It takes far too much work to get the results that you're looking for when you breed to the SOP. And if you pay attention to not only appearance, but also meat and egg production traits, then it is even more work and takes even more time to achieve/maintain all the different traits that you want in your birds. There is a reason that hatchery stock does not look like the breed standard - because they can't make a profit by doing such heavy selective breeding required.

As far as getting Javas - I would again recommend that you look at what your business goals are and determine what your priorities are. Javas are a neglected breed. Even getting them from someone like me that has been breeding them for a few years, there are still many flaws that come up that have to be addressed. They are great birds but only if your expectations are within reason for what a Java can be expected to live up to.

 

[gjensen]

I have read though this entire thread and found it fascinating. The more I read the more I realized what it takes to truly breed to the standard. Because of this I have found myself at a cross roads and could use some advice.
I have built a small egg business on hatchery stock Rhode Island Reds and they have been good to me. But over the years I slowly realized that I need better control over the variability of my birds’ size and egg-laying ability in order to take my business to the next level. With this in mind and as a beginner I resolved to start breeding to the SOP with the birds I already have. I have an old SOP book and have used that as my staring place.
I understand that I’m starting with junky birds. But I’ve got to start somewhere. I was one season into this project when stumbled on the RIR thread. After reading it through and through I realized I don’t like the shape of true type RIRs, or at least I didn’t like the look birds pictured there. A little bit of a bummer.
So my question is this: After a lot of thought and research, I’m considering breeding my birds to the Java standard because it is similar to but just enough different enough from the RIR. Could I call them Red Javas? I know this could be sacrilege but I like everything about the RIR except the shape. I’m not dug in on this, however, and could easily move in a different direction with different birds. Just thought I would see what your reactions would be.

Consider a different breed all together, if you are interested in breeding.

If egg production is you exclusive concern, then breeding is not cost effective. It is cheaper to purchase replacement chicks every year, and slaughter all of the producing birds at two years. This rotation provides hens and pullets every year. There should never be a gap in production for the consumer's sake.

It really is cheaper to buy them than it is to breed them.

If breeding is a primary concern, neither Javas or today's Reds will be cost efficient producers.

I would spend some time considering what means the most to you. Obviously you want to breed, and a breeder is creative. You have creative instincts. Many of us, myself included, started with experimenting and fanciful ideas. Many of the very best breeders have misc. color variety projects. Even in rare breeds. Their creative instincts motivated them to do just that. Common sense tells us that they are doing no harm. It ruffles feathers only if the uninformed do it. They tend to promote them with exaggerated claims, and the birds are usually junk. The newbies on BYC are suckers for it, and it annoys some. It annoys me to, but I am trying to appreciate that ignorance is bliss. Let people believe as they choose. That is what we will do anyways. Do and believe as we please. We have a rather self centered reality. Our own personal truths are manufactured within our own minds, unfortunately.

If you are seriously interested in breeding, I strongly suggest picking a breed that does tickle your fancy. Select a type and color variety that appeals to you. Learn how to breed quality birds. If I had done that in my beginnings, I would be much farther along now. This does not mean that you cannot be creative. You can. It is suggesting that you will be better for learning to breed good birds first. And breeding good birds in an established and recognized type and variety requires a surplus of creativity.

After saying all of this. On your yard, it is your yard, do what tickles your fancy. There are no moral imperatives with keeping chickens. If you want to play around with a fanciful idea, go for it. I did it for years. I learned a lot. I did no harm. I did not have internet personalities telling me what to do, and I would not have listened anyways.

Just keep in mind that there are plenty of people reproducing junk. Even good talkers. Maybe myself. There is, on the other hand, very few people breeding good birds. Or birds that are getting better and better every generation. Most of us are just maintaining a status quo (spinning our wheels) or going the wrong way all together.

If these birds are going to persist through the coming generations, there needs to be a line of experienced and established breeders of good birds plus up and coming breeders that has what it takes with the love for doing it.

 

[sideWing]

Consider a different breed all together, if you are interested in breeding.

If egg production is you exclusive concern, then breeding is not cost effective. It is cheaper to purchase replacement chicks every year, and slaughter all of the producing birds at two years. This rotation provides hens and pullets every year. There should never be a gap in production for the consumer's sake.

It really is cheaper to buy them than it is to breed them.

If breeding is a primary concern, neither Javas or today's Reds will be cost efficient producers.

I would spend some time considering what means the most to you. Obviously you want to breed, and a breeder is creative. You have creative instincts. Many of us, myself included, started with experimenting and fanciful ideas. Many of the very best breeders have misc. color variety projects. Even in rare breeds. Their creative instincts motivated them to do just that. Common sense tells us that they are doing no harm. It ruffles feathers only if the uninformed do it. They tend to promote them with exaggerated claims, and the birds are usually junk. The newbies on BYC are suckers for it, and it annoys some. It annoys me to, but I am trying to appreciate that ignorance is bliss. Let people believe as they choose. That is what we will do anyways. Do and believe as we please. We have a rather self centered reality. Our own personal truths are manufactured within our own minds, unfortunately.

If you are seriously interested in breeding, I strongly suggest picking a breed that does tickle your fancy. Select a type and color variety that appeals to you. Learn how to breed quality birds. If I had done that in my beginnings, I would be much farther along now. This does not mean that you cannot be creative. You can. It is suggesting that you will be better for learning to breed good birds first. And breeding good birds in an established and recognized type and variety requires a surplus of creativity.

After saying all of this. On your yard, it is your yard, do what tickles your fancy. There are no moral imperatives with keeping chickens. If you want to play around with a fanciful idea, go for it. I did it for years. I learned a lot. I did no harm. I did not have internet personalities telling me what to do, and I would not have listened anyways.

Just keep in mind that there are plenty of people reproducing junk. Even good talkers. Maybe myself. There is, on the other hand, very few people breeding good birds. Or birds that are getting better and better every generation. Most of us are just maintaining a status quo (spinning our wheels) or going the wrong way all together.

If these birds are going to persist through the coming generations, there needs to be a line of experienced and established breeders of good birds plus up and coming breeders that has what it takes with the love for doing it.

Great post!

I was that newbie last year on BYC that paid too much for someones junk birds. They were project birds sold as the real thing. I don't think the breeder was a jerk, just uninformed or inexperienced. I also had a breed that I thought I would breed to SOP instead of buying good birds. I spent more on feed in 8 months than I would have paid for the best birds I could get shipped to my state. Then I paid through the nose when I bought good birds because the spring, summer, and inexpensive birds were gone.

That being said...... I have a crazy color project that I'm working on that is probably nuts. I can't help myself, I want to try it.

I am sticking to SOP, but messing with a color or pattern. If I endup with messed up birds I will sell the pullets as egg layers and the cockerels for meat. I won't sell a male and female to the same person since I don't want more junk on the market.

ETA: I totally respect anyone that wants to breed to whatever kind of bird they want. You pay for the feed and you shovel up behind them, do what you like.

 

[Pasturedpeeps]

Thank you gjensen, that is helpful and I appreciate you being patient with me.
I think I understand now that the birds bred closest to the SOP are owned by specialists and created over many human generations. I don't think I can reach those heights running a small, diversified farm. Time just wont allow it.
But I am interested in and would love to have a small flock that could meet my egg needs and provides good-sized flavorful cockerels bred to the SOP. Is this idealistic? I am under the impression that small-scale pure-bred flocks before industrialization could meet this criteria.
I agree that hatchery stock is easier and probably cheaper. But there is too much variability in size and laying ability. I just assumed that breeding would help increase consistency.

 

[MagicChicken]

Thank you gjensen, that is helpful and I appreciate you being patient with me.
I think I understand now that the birds bred closest to the SOP are owned by specialists and created over many human generations. I don't think I can reach those heights running a small, diversified farm. Time just wont allow it.
But I am interested in and would love to have a small flock that could meet my egg needs and provides good-sized flavorful cockerels bred to the SOP. Is this idealistic? I am under the impression that small-scale pure-bred flocks before industrialization could meet this criteria.
I agree that hatchery stock is easier and probably cheaper. But there is too much variability in size and laying ability. I just assumed that breeding would help increase consistency.

My Java cockerels are flavorful. But they are also all leg. By the time they get a decent amount of breast meat they are 6-12 months old and tough as leather. There is a reason Javas nearly went extinct. They have issues. On the other hand you can stew the older ones for 4+ hours until the meat falls off the bones and the meat is still tasty. They make great stock, and you also get a lot of still-flavorful shredded meat. I now understand why so many old-time recipes called for cooked, shredded chicken meat.

I typically start setting eggs in late December and do successive small hatches every ten days or so from January through April. It is a lot of work. A side effect is that I have a steady supply of cockerels to cull in the spring and early summer. I cull them as they become annoying. Usually two or three at a time. It's a good meat source for me, and I also give away some of the processed birds to friends and neighbors (a perk for putting up with all the rooster noise). I can't see Javas making sense for a meat bird or an egg business but they are fun dual-purpose birds if you are willing to take the time with them.

If I had an egg business I would find a good source of fairly uniform production birds and not worry about breeding them myself. If you think you've got variability in size and laying ability with your production flock, just wait until you start working on a "standard" breed that needs work (which is most of them). In my Javas, egg quality and size is all over the place. They all lay brown eggs. But brown eggs range from almost white to medium brown, with all variations between including pinkish tones. Plus some have speckles or chalk or lumps or thin spots or weird points or double yolks or... You get the idea. Just because it's a "standard" breed doesn't mean it's uniform. The breed needs a LOT of work.

Right now I'm selecting hatching eggs based on egg quality because I've had several renegade hens escape their breeding pens and intermingle with chickens in adjacent pens, so my breeding pairs are all messed up. I have no idea who laid what where, or who might have fertilized any of the eggs. Rather than waste the whole hatching season I'm hatching the best quality eggs, without any idea of who laid them. I hope the pen modifications I am making stop the cross-pen "contamination" and I can get back to hatching from specific breeding pairs and trios in a few weeks. Until then I'm selecting for egg quality. Gotta make lemonade when you can.

If you want a small "standard" flock for your own use, find a local breeder with birds you like, get some birds from them and have fun. Local poultry shows are a good place to start.

 

[bnjrob]

But I am interested in and would love to have a small flock that could meet my egg needs and provides good-sized flavorful cockerels bred to the SOP. Is this idealistic? I am under the impression that small-scale pure-bred flocks before industrialization could meet this criteria.
I agree that hatchery stock is easier and probably cheaper. But there is too much variability in size and laying ability. I just assumed that breeding would help increase consistency.

Your first post you said you were selling eggs and seemed to want to continue to do so and take things to the next level. Yet you are unhappy with your birds type and egg laying ability. You need to decide what your priority is. Do you want to sell eggs or is the look of your birds more important to you? If egg laying is very important to you, then looks are going to need to take a back seat. Your customers won't care if your bird's type is all over the place as long as you meet their needs for selling them eggs. If you aren't happy with your current birds egg laying ability, you probably have the wrong breed and should look at getting an egg laying breed rather than a Production Red which is still based off a dual purpose breed. Usually Production Reds are fine for the average egg consumer but it sounds like you're needing a larger quantity of eggs that even a hatchery dual-purpose bird may be able to supply.

Production is *relatively* fast and easy to breed for (laying is easier than meat) - but when you start adding in appearance standards - you have just upped your work load and time it takes to see progress. Yes, selective breeding would increase consistency - but I don't think you appreciate just how long it takes to get that consistency. We're talking many years to reach that level. And even then, chicken genetics is so crazy, just because you breed two birds together that are grand champion show winners and have excellent carcasses and egg laying ability does NOT mean that the majority of the offspring will have all of those same traits too. It can be a real crap shoot when you're breeding and things will pop up in the offspring that were not present in their parents or even grandparents. That SOP you were looking at - those photos and descriptions are of the perfect bird - a bird that espouses all the best traits that have been seen in that breed - but not necessarily all in the same bird. And unfortunately there are not tons of birds that have all of those desired breed traits within one body. If there were, there would not be a need for poultry shows because all the birds would look so darn perfect that there wouldn't be much competition. It takes more years to get a higher level of uniformity than your posts indicate you want to spend.

Finding standard-bred birds to meet your needs for eggs and meat depends on what your needs actually are. To make a decision, you need to quantify just how many eggs you expect to get and how much meat you expect to get from one carcass. You have to work within the limits of the birds' capabilities. Are you still wanting this flock to produce eggs for you to sell? Or are you only interested in eggs for your family? And how many eggs do you use? Do you make a lot of things from scratch where you use more eggs than the average family that only eats eggs as an actual dish? How much chicken meat do you eat? If you have goals for your chickens, you would do well to quantify these egg and meat consumption needs by taking a couple of months and every day write down how much chicken meat and how many eggs you use, so you can see an accurate picture of your usage.

And then if you're still wanting to sell eggs, you need to have an idea of how many eggs you need to maintain your business. Of course if you are selling eggs for quantity rather than a niche market that wants things like colored eggs/organic eggs/eggs from rare birds, then you'd be better off getting a commercial egg laying breed for that purpose in order to have a larger profit margin and just forget about standard bred birds altogether.

A dual purpose fowl is meant to provide meat and eggs but they won't give you as much meat or eggs as a breed that has been bred specifically as a meat bird or an egg bird. You can take a dual purpose breed and breed it to have more meat or more eggs, but you're going to sacrifice other things such as body type (appearance) when you do this. My best laying Javas have terrible type and size (too small) and do not look like the Javas in the SOP pictures. They came from someone that emphasized laying and while I can't complain about their egg laying abilities, they don't look as nice as my birds that are closer to the SOP, if you stand them next to each other.

There are ways to compensate for the dual purpose birds being a middle of the road food producer - by keeping enough birds to meet your needs. With my Javas that lay every other day to every few days, when we had just a handful of hens they kept us in more eggs than two of us could eat. With standard bred birds that don't lay every single day, nearly every day of the year, you can compensate for the fewer eggs than you'd get from a commercial layer - but you have to decide whether your priority is lots of eggs with less birds to feed, fewer eggs from a smaller flock, or more eggs coming from more birds.

You mention that you want good sized flavorful cockerels but you don't say what you consider to be *good sized*. And at what age do you expect these cockerels to reach that weight? And how much weight are you expecting to be meat versus bone weight? A standard bred, dual purpose bird is going to be slow growing and is going to be building skeletal mass before it puts on muscle - otherwise it would be sickly and be prone to fractures like the modern commercial meat chickens do. Not to mention that the commercial meat birds will start dying from organ failure if you do not butcher them quickly.

If your expectations are not compatible with the breed that you think you like or the birds you already have, then you'll have to either change your expectations or choose a different breed or even a different source for birds. For egg laying, hatchery birds can't be beat, most of them are egg laying machines. But if yours are not, then perhaps the breed is the problem and you need to look at an egg layer. And large amounts of fast growing meat are going to be more likely to come from a hatchery meat mutt, not the typical standard bred breed you're likely to find. I recommend you write down your goals for your flock to reach - to include things like how much work you are willing to put into them, how much feed you are willing to feed them, how many birds you are willing to keep in order to meet those needs. Seeing your expectations, which should be prioritized as most to least important, will help you better prioritize and you'll be able to see exactly what your expectations are and if there are birds that can meet them.

 

[gjensen]

Thank you gjensen, that is helpful and I appreciate you being patient with me.
I think I understand now that the birds bred closest to the SOP are owned by specialists and created over many human generations. I don't think I can reach those heights running a small, diversified farm. Time just wont allow it.
But I am interested in and would love to have a small flock that could meet my egg needs and provides good-sized flavorful cockerels bred to the SOP. Is this idealistic? I am under the impression that small-scale pure-bred flocks before industrialization could meet this criteria.
I agree that hatchery stock is easier and probably cheaper. But there is too much variability in size and laying ability. I just assumed that breeding would help increase consistency.

You certainly can do it, if you want to. It requires a similar amount of time and resources to manage either a production flock or breeding flock. It does not have to be either or. I breed productive birds to the Standard. Where it requires more of me is creativity and interest. I may spend a little more time in the evening admiring my birds, and becoming more intimately familiar with them. (I think that is part of good management anyways.) Like any farm enterprise the main efforts are seasonal, and their is a seasonal rhythm.

An aim of breeding is consistent results. In a production flock, inconsistency kills utility. In an exhibition flock, a goal is reliably good birds.

You can certainly expect reasonable egg production and extra cockerels fit for consumption (and a reasonable carcass). Only temper your expectations. They will not be on either productive extreme. Many strains are still productive though. It is up to you to find a breed that interests you the most. Then a strain that is worth starting with. We can help you find a strain, but you have to pick a breed. Just temper your expectations. And unfortunately, some are not worth picking up on.

Everything is simpler and better when we pick and work with a single breed. The path is easier to define, and what we are working with is worth something. History backs that up. They are history. A contributor to our agricultural history.

ETA: And though it may be outside the scope of this thread, you can still breed production birds. However, you will never get more productive or consistent than commercial production strains that are conveniently available (and cheap).