A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[gjensen]

Rocks and Reds old? There are no old American Breeds.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Rocks and Reds old? There are no old American Breeds.

Hahahaha.

Meaning that the Standard has not been changed for them in a very long time, of course.

 

[cscarney]

Quote: Thank you for the welcome!

I know what you mean about most of the info being transmitted face to face--the same is true with killifish (a very specialized subset of the aquarium hobby), though that is changing as younger members enter the hobby. That said, there is no substitute for hand's on experience under the eye of an experienced breeder--until I ran my hands over well sprung ribs compared to flat ribs on my Shetlands I couldn't see the difference. Now I know better. I'd be you this spring's hatch the same is true with poultry.....

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

A little late for the season, I decided to switch to machine incubating chicks this year, hoping to speed things up a bit, hatch bigger clutches, and now that I have more than one pen going, keep track of the chicks from different matings. So I culled back my hatchery layers (where my broodies have been living) and ordered a big cabinet incubator and a smaller counter-top model to serve as a hatcher. Everything arrived on Saturday, but the big box was soggy, and when I was putting it together I noticed something looked funny ... besides parts missing, it's the big cabinet HATCHER, not the incubator.

 

[dheltzel]

Thank you for the welcome!

I know what you mean about most of the info being transmitted face to face--the same is true with killifish (a very specialized subset of the aquarium hobby), though that is changing as younger members enter the hobby. That said, there is no substitute for hand's on experience under the eye of an experienced breeder--until I ran my hands over well sprung ribs compared to flat ribs on my Shetlands I couldn't see the difference. Now I know better. I'd be you this spring's hatch the same is true with poultry.....

You keep killifish? I used to to have many, before I converted my fishroom to a chick hatchery. And what you say is very true, I think most of the members in our local killifish group had to get one of their children to setup an email account so they could receive the meeting announcements. As much info as their is online about killies, it pales in comparison to what you get visiting the fishroom of an "old timer" (using that term affectionately, since many would call me that). Shows and conventions are where people swap fish and husbandry secrets. It's a shame really that so much experience and information is lost every time one of those people leave the hobby (for whatever reason), but the demand for that specialize information is too small to warrant paying them to write it down, so it gets passed down in more of an oral tradition than any formal method. I think that is changing with so much information being preserved online, but it's certain some of what remains only in the minds of people will be lost forever.

I think if you substitute "heritage poultry" for "killifish" in that, you'd find much of the same.

 

[cscarney]

dheltzel--Were you a PAKA member?? I'm not active right now with fish--the fish room is sitting empty as I got involved with livestock. And, oh yes, the knowledge that our senior membership (members in GCKA had been involved with the founding of the AKA so they went WAY back) was absolutely amazing. Sadly, they didn't write stuff down, and we lost so much as they passed away over time, though we did push to compile as much "nuts and bolts" information as we could.

Maybe the similarities between the groups of people is why I'm finding myself so at home with SOP poultry breeders.The killifish people were generous to a fault with their time and "starter fish," knowing how important mentoring was to getting and keeping new members in the hobby and I am finding the same thing here on this site (thank you BYC!).

I think sites like this have a huge impact in preserving the knowledge base moving forward--as we correspond the posts we make become a record people can use as references for as long as the site exists.

Catherine

 

[BGMatt]

Thank you for this thread! I stayed up until 2 AM to finish it, and the information people have shared here will make me a better SOP breeder with my Langshans.

I've been involved with poultry (and Shetland sheep) for over a decade as a breeder, but have only gotten serious about breeding quality birds in the last few, and then it took a while to find the quality I wanted to work with. Personally, I hate culling, though it has to be done and it takes just as much to feed a crappy bird as to feed a good one.

I do have a few questions:

1: I don't know as much as I would like about the breeds I'm working with--Langshans, bantam Phoenix (silver and gold duckwings, fawn duckwings, dominant white--mostly just for fun to see if I can get a good fawn strain going and they're excellent broodies), and Brabanters (they're from Ideal, so I know I'll be culling out most of them). Can anyone recommend reading material/reference sources? I do have the APA abd ABA SOP's, and refer to it regularly for the Langshans ("height of bird should come from depth of breast, not stiltiness of leg" is my mantra this season) and Phoenix. The Brabanters are more problematic as they are not in the Standard....

2: I do plan to go to Ohio National this year with some decent (I hope) show birds. I'd like to get feedback on the birds, but more importantly learn from other breeders about how to become better. Any tips to making the most of that weekend?

3: Anything else you can think of to make me a better breeder?? I'm committed to my Langshans for the long haul (agree totally with the need for dedicated breeders to keep breeds going), have no plans to phase out the Phoenix anytime soon, and we'll see how the Brabanters do....

Thanks in advance!

1: The Standard is the only guide you need as far as information for selecting breeders and culling offspring. Too many sources and might dilute your goal of improving the breeds. For the Langshans if you're a fan of history "The Langshan Fowl: Its History and Characteristics With Some Comments on Its Early Opponents" - By AC Croad is an interesting read that covers how the Langshan arrived in Europe and when those original imports were also sent to the USA, sadly I've been unable to find much in the way of reading material from it's early days in the US.

2: Talk to people, everyone you can. Track down the judge after judging is done and ask him for more comments on your birds. However, keep in mind that a judge only sees the birds for a few minutes at most at the show, and only can compare to the standard. They may or may not have experience breeding that bird, and the highest placing birds are not always the best for your breeding program.

3: Space, lots of space for growing out birds. Keeping them as stress free as possible enables them to reach their full genetic potential. Nothing worse than not having enough dedicated grow out space, and ending up with birds over crowded and stressed while growing. Also don't focus on everything at once. Pick two, maybe three things to improve per breeding season. Breed from a few carefully selected birds rather than large numbers. Cull hard.The last bit of advice you might not like, but I'd seriously consider going down to one, or at most two breeds & varieties. Most folks don't truly have the resources and facilities to do more than one breed and variety properly.

 

[dheltzel]

dheltzel--Were you a PAKA member?? I'm not active right now with fish--the fish room is sitting empty as I got involved with livestock. And, oh yes, the knowledge that our senior membership (members in GCKA had been involved with the founding of the AKA so they went WAY back) was absolutely amazing. Sadly, they didn't write stuff down, and we lost so much as they passed away over time, though we did push to compile as much "nuts and bolts" information as we could.

Maybe the similarities between the groups of people is why I'm finding myself so at home with SOP poultry breeders.The killifish people were generous to a fault with their time and "starter fish," knowing how important mentoring was to getting and keeping new members in the hobby and I am finding the same thing here on this site (thank you BYC!).

I think sites like this have a huge impact in preserving the knowledge base moving forward--as we correspond the posts we make become a record people can use as references for as long as the site exists.

Catherine

I was in the Keystone Killy Group, lots of old time members there, I think I was one of the youngest members (and I'm no "spring chicken").

When I was a kid, getting any information on poultry was hard. My uncle bred and showed poultry and I used to "hang on his every word" because I recognized how much he knew that wasn't in any book, anywhere. Going to the county library was my only hope of getting knowledge about plants and animals beyond that -- and it was sparse compared to what you can find now in 5 minutes online. The amount of documented knowledge that is publicly accessible has multiplied millions of times, yet it is still only a tiny fraction of what people have learned, especially in the more obscure topics, like heritage poultry and killifish.

 

[cscarney]

Thank you bgmatt! I was hoping you'd be willing to give me advice here!

I have been thinking about dropping the Phoenix, though they do make nice little broodies--if I do keep any of them it will likely be the fawns if I can get that color and pattern where I want it. The Brabanters may or may not be around after this year--if I do keep them it will likely only be the gold and I'll get rid of the creme.

I'm putting eggs in the incubator today--plan to set about 3 dozen Langshans with the plan of having two trios max from the hatch by fall. One GOOD thing about culling is that I get a really, really good look at the carcass quality, and since the breed was originally multipurposed including as a table fowl that's a big factor in the birds I plan to keep. The Langshans I have right now are good layers, but personally I think they're a bit on the small side, and I had some issues with stiltiness on last year's hatch--the culls made good eating, but the depth of breast and therefore the amount of meat just wasn't there. That's not to say they should be built like a Cornish, though!

The good news is that I do have space--one whole wall of the garage is devoted to brooder space (with removable partitions so I can change the configuration as my needs change over the course of the season), the empty fish room in the basement can house both incubators and brooder cages, and there's plenty of room for arks and runs as the weather stabilizes, not to mention the freestanding poultry sheds with attached runs (and the plans to build one more that's a combo of shed/runs/greenhouse this summer). The good thing with the Langshans is that, unlike the bantams, they're big enough the Cooper's hawks don't seem to go after them, so the adult birds free range much of the time here outside of breeding season. I do have issues with raccoons, but the birds get locked up every night without fail--they're definitely happier and healthier when they can roam and eat bugs!

I'll have to look up the historical reference you listed. The way I look at it, the history of the breed explains may of the characteristics I should look for and preserve as a breeder. The characteristics people selected for at the time the standard was established are what should define the breed today, IMO.

And yes, agree totally you can't fix too many things at once. I'm fortunate that I started with birds that are healthy, disease resistant, and fertile. Size and stiltiness (which seem to me to be interrelated) are tops on my list this season. I carried over five cockerels and pullets and did the last culls early this month (cockerels: one stilty, two with side sprigs though they had great type), and have two pullets who are in the layer-only pen due to lack of correct leg/toe feathering and purple on some feathers. Have one more cock (the foundation bird) who is not in the breeding pens this spring--the two sons I kept are better birds--but who is still around as a backup since he throws good birds. So, if his sons turn out to throw crappy offspring I can still go back to the foundation....Ditto for the senior hen.

So, I hope to bring up the size and get better body depth/less stiltiness for starters overall. The hens look a little narrow through the tail now that I've been looking at good Langshans here (though they have nice depth of body and nice tail carriage), so I hope to fix that with the nice wide tails on the cocks I kept. I have one hen I kept with white tips on her toe feathering and made darn sure she's in the pen with the cock that has NO white anywhere since she had what I consider to be the best body type. Total breeding pens for them is two quads, and if I go much higher than that each spring it probably means I'm not being selective enough.

I do hope to show them in Columbus in November and get feedback not just from the judges but from other breeders. You are absolutely right that the best show birds may not be the best breeders--I've seen it time and time again with my sheep. One other factor, of course, is that some breedings just "click" and consistently throw offspring better than either parent (have a few ram and ewe pairings that work that way right now). Sometimes you just don't know what sort of breeders you're working with until the first offspring hit the ground....

Catherine

 

[cscarney]

Keystone has a great history in the killifish hobby!

Yeah, we've gotten spoiled with the internet. Amazing how much knowledge we have available--probably the hardest thing right now is learning how to take that knowledge and winnow the wheat from the chaff. There's plenty of marginal information out there along with the good!

I envy you having a poultry mentor growing up. Still working on that. The forums here help a lot, but nothing can replace having that bird in your hands as a senior hobbyist goes over it with you.