A situation at church...

[nancysmith2]

Tazer, I am from Montgomery. I attend a church with a ministry to drug abusers, child molesters,homosexuals,etc. All come b/c we do not judge them we truly try to help them find deliverance. They will all tell you, if we aren't seeking we are using." It is what they do best is use and abuse. Sometimes God puts us in a crucible to burn away all the stuff that keeps us from Him. Every time some well meaning person comes along and rescues us from what HE is trying to accomplish, it prolongs the process. Have you ever talked to a delivered addict? If not I suggest you do. It will enlighten you to alot of things. I would give this some serious prayer and Scripture reading. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. Not your conscience or guilt. This is a serious matter that calls for serious spiritual mindset. If you do this without that you will become disgusted with them and jaded and perhaps never want to reach out again. This is a process. Don't go into it unless you are sure this what the Lord has led you to do.

 

[deb1]

Quote:
Yes, and Jesus was not exactly gentle with the money users who were disrespecting his father's temple.

A portapotty is a good idea. Maybe more then one. By all means help these people.

But don't allow them to respect the church by using the bathroom on its steps.

 

[boaz]

Jesus was angry at the money changers because they were the organized Jewish religion at the time. His anger stemmed from the fact that the House of worship had been turned into a commercial venture. I can not recall a recorded event where Jesus was harsh with the thrashing, convulsing, bleeding sinner. I don't think the church steps are a matter of disrespect so much as convenience for people living on the street.


I believe Luke 16 lays out the criteria that we are expected to pursue.

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: [The phrase, "certain rich man" is also in v1.]
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

This is not the full verse; however, the gist of it suggests the sins of omission are counted as well as the ones we blatantly commit. Is this an easy assignment when it comes to addicts? No, I pray that we all reach out to the forgotten today.

 

[deb1]

Quote:
I don't get what you mean by sins of ommisions boaz.

I think that if God blesses one with riches then that person is responsible for helping others. Yes, I believe in compassion. The problem is that we have to be certain that our compassion helps and doesn't do more pain then good. If you give a begger money and you know that they will spend the money on booze, you have hurt that person and not helped them. That is false compassion.

The money lenders were not organized religion. Jesus was not against organized religion. Reading the gospels as a whole it is obvious that Jesus was an observent Jew. His teachings are very similar to a Jewish scholar named Hillel. This has always led me to believe that Jesus was a much more educated individual then we give him credit for being.

In the Old Testament(can't remember the verses) God gives exact details as to how he wants his temple decorated with expensive wood, hangings and gold. I doubt that a Jewish person of the time would have pooped on the Temple steps.

Also, I fail to see where telling a person not to poop on a church steps after you provide a portapotty or two is being harsh.

A portapotty will respect the church and the homeless person's dignity. Saying, yeah, go ahead and use the front church as a bathroom, desrespects everyone including the homeless themselves. I don't see that as being loving at all. We are supposed to treat others as we would want to be treated. Would you want to sleep next to someone else's fecal material?

Interesting discussion, Boaz.

I think that you and I are agreeing more then we are disagreeing.

 

[boaz]

The issue here is what is the small stuff and what is the big stuff. The moneychangers were an integral part of the animal sacrificial rite. People traveling from far away would have to buy an animal to offer, the debate is whether Jesus was saying animal sacrifices will no longer be a part of worship or the fact that the business at hand was an auction yard and as such was dirty. Jews had to be ceremonially clean to worship. Jesus is Jewish and observed all ordinances.

Of course, no one wants to step in human waste and a means of a porta potty is a good idea. The danger in focusing on the inherent complications is that we can easily pile up enough logical reasons to step over the addict or homeless. To list a few: it is in their best interest not to give money, they look scary, most of the homeless are pro scam artists that live in the Hamptons and have their Mercedes parked around the corner, they could have Hep C, D, E, LMNOP. I am being a bit over the top but have seen so much of what I am describing.

People need deliverance from addictions, deliverance may have a negative connotation in some circles. Deliverance could better be described as a substitution methodology; one that we all are familiar with. The Bible refers to being filled with the Holy Spirit after running out the demons of whatever malady it was afflicting the person.

 

[Wifezilla]

Maybe the church needs to look in to a program like this....
http://www.step13.org/index.php/About/Work-Works.html

 

[sundance]

Quote:
Well said but you may also win some of them to the church.I have a pot holder with this AWFUL looking woman on it which says, Be kind to everyone you meet, it could be an angel. marrie

 

[deb1]

Quote:
I agree with most of what you wrote but this.

If you KNOW(notice that I emphasised the word Know) that a person is scamming others or is going to use the money to hurt themselves then it would be nonloving to give them money. Not everyone who is discerning with their help is doing it so that they can play a game of logic to justify not helping others.

I also think that some compassion is selfish. The giver wants to feel good about themselves but really doesn't care about doing what is necessary to actually make a difference in another's life. They don't care about the other person's self dignity.

The people around the OP's church sound as though they are genuinely in need. The question isn't if she should help them but how to help them.

 

[deb1]

Quote:
Well said but you may also win some of them to the church.I have a pot holder with this AWFUL looking woman on it which says, Be kind to everyone you meet, it could be an angel. marrie

I would like a pot holder with this on it.

 

[chickinlickin]

Quote:
First off, I've been enjoying this conversation..some very good food for thought.

I think deb1 makes a couple good points....my wife and I are searching for a church right now partly because of the "selfish compassion" issue...not only to make the giver feel good themselves, but to look good in the eyes of others...and frankly, I'm not too tolerant of it (I need to work on that, I know). And I know that it will be an issue where ever we go....people are people.

I also was going to post that it didn't seem that showing love and concern to the homeless was the issue, but how best to do it...Another thought I had while reading all of this.....Jesus went to the cross, suffered and died for a bunch of "dirty, homeless" people....all of us.