Acclimating Pet Dogs? Can it be done?

[centrarchid]

Do you lose birds in the training process due to dogs?

A small number yes, with most but not with all dogs. Current female in training is a yes. Losses incurred usually when dog is between 6 and 12 months of age. Previous dog killed two, one by stepping on it. Present trainee is up to three but that appears to be slowing down. I setup so birds lost are young culls which are free-ranged in group of about 20. When I say loss, that does not always mean deathloss which is not desirable, it can also mean a bird is mauled to loose tail feathers. Feathers of such birds are going to be replaced anyway but dog interferes with pattern of loss. Also birds culled are usually done according to some quality that is not desireable and often such birds have health issues as well. Presently I have a game stag that has a chronic case of coryza and a pullet with bad toes. Both are targeted by dog in training but she is starting to loose interest in them as well which is evident as birds are now feeding and even sunning in close proximity to her. Other birds are largely left alone except for during bowling time. The six month window with this dog is occuring outside of production season. By start of next production season in March dog should be largely done with harassing birds and if further schooling required, then she will be schooled by a gamehen with chicks. I will back up gamehen if need be.

Elder dog in place is showing tendency to reprimand pup when she gets out of line and he gets me when pup is messing with birds. She is not yet allowed to romp too long without supervision but it is needed for her to show her true colors. She is a smart one that tries to beat me but by all appearances she will mature into a very good guardian. She is also learning how to navigate pens and fences at this time and much of this is done while bothering birds. She will hopefully retain that skill set as wingman for elder dog when trhey try to catch Mr. Fox. If she does Mr. Fox is screwed.


Problem I run into is when dogs are imprinted, they are imprinted only on the adult birds they where raised with. They seem to know those birds by sight, sound and smell. Being imprinted helps but does not stop hazards imposed upon juveniles and chicks. The imprinting though does make so adult chickens can attack dog messing with young birds without dog simply turning around and making snack of attacker. That can happen as you might imagine. I had an old arthritic dalmation that not would mess with birds at all but killed out right a cock bird that flogged from behind without apparent cause.

TMI?

 

[ChickensRDinos]

Lots of good advice here. I think the most important things to start with are good basic training and overall impulse control training. There are lots of great activities you can work on with your dog EVERY DAY (and you really need to work with your dog every day if you want this to work) that don't involve risking live birds. You can work on "stay," "wait," and "leave it" with toys, treats and games and each night work on food training with your dog. Take every opportunity to make your dog wait for things they really want to help them with impulse control in many different situations. Making sure overall that your dog is well exercised and not bored will help a lot.

Once you feel comfortable I would use a leash and introduce the dog to the chickens. Scold or remove the dog at ANY reaction other than ignoring. Staring is bad. Excitement, even happy excitement is bad. Only calm indifference is acceptable.

I would also make sure to introduce your dog to all of your birds and all of the different areas you keep birds. Don't assume because they know the coop they will be fine around the brooder and vice versa.

 

[centrarchid]

Ultimately, you will be risking live birds, to think otherwise is unrealistic. Having complete over dog while directly supervised does not mean risk not translated to loss when you are not looking. In most intances when dogs are used as LGD's direct interaction between dogs and poultry will ultimately be required without direct supervision. I setup so losses or risk of losses are minimal and used to prevent subsequent losses that are much more significant either at hands of intended LGD or predator that would do even worse if LGD does not do job. In my setting, wild predators would clean me out if it were not for the very same dogs that present challenges during the training process. The LGD's impact only few and that is during a relatively short portion of the dog's productive lifespan. After trainup, I should have several years of worry free LGD performance until present dogs go into retirement. We here on this forum seem only concerned with what goes on during the trainup portion of the dogs lifetime. There is much more and that is where it more than balances in favor positive value of the LGD.

 

[aoxa]

A small number yes, with most but not with all dogs. Current female in training is a yes. Losses incurred usually when dog is between 6 and 12 months of age. Previous dog killed two, one by stepping on it. Present trainee is up to three but that appears to be slowing down. I setup so birds lost are young culls which are free-ranged in group of about 20. When I say loss, that does not always mean deathloss which is not desirable, it can also mean a bird is mauled to loose tail feathers. Feathers of such birds are going to be replaced anyway but dog interferes with pattern of loss. Also birds culled are usually done according to some quality that is not desireable and often such birds have health issues as well. Presently I have a game stag that has a chronic case of coryza and a pullet with bad toes. Both are targeted by dog in training but she is starting to loose interest in them as well which is evident as birds are now feeding and even sunning in close proximity to her. Other birds are largely left alone except for during bowling time. The six month window with this dog is occuring outside of production season. By start of next production season in March dog should be largely done with harassing birds and if further schooling required, then she will be schooled by a gamehen with chicks. I will back up gamehen if need be.

Elder dog in place is showing tendency to reprimand pup when she gets out of line and he gets me when pup is messing with birds. She is not yet allowed to romp too long without supervision but it is needed for her to show her true colors. She is a smart one that tries to beat me but by all appearances she will mature into a very good guardian. She is also learning how to navigate pens and fences at this time and much of this is done while bothering birds. She will hopefully retain that skill set as wingman for elder dog when trhey try to catch Mr. Fox. If she does Mr. Fox is screwed.


Problem I run into is when dogs are imprinted, they are imprinted only on the adult birds they where raised with. They seem to know those birds by sight, sound and smell. Being imprinted helps but does not stop hazards imposed upon juveniles and chicks. The imprinting though does make so adult chickens can attack dog messing with young birds without dog simply turning around and making snack of attacker. That can happen as you might imagine. I had an old arthritic dalmation that not would mess with birds at all but killed out right a cock bird that flogged from behind without apparent cause.

TMI?

A lot to take in!

My LGD in training has killed two so far. First one was a very young chick. Pup was 10 weeks old. She was squished.
Second was a bantam. I was not there, but there was no blood and a suspected broken neck/back. Playing is my guess. Pup was 4-5 months at that time.
No losses since.. Close calls. She loves bowling. With bantams that frightens me. They are so small, and she is so big.

She shows no signs of imprinting on them, but definitely with our sheep who we just got. However, she was raised to 10 weeks with sheep. Could it have stuck with her since that age?

Should I interfere with her playing with the sheep? I have been. One ewe had a bloody nose from head butting her so much (as the pup was annoying her with playing).

 

[centrarchid]

A lot to take in!

My LGD in training has killed two so far. First one was a very young chick. Pup was 10 weeks old. She was squished.
Second was a bantam. I was not there, but there was no blood and a suspected broken neck/back. Playing is my guess. Pup was 4-5 months at that time.
No losses since.. Close calls. She loves bowling. With bantams that frightens me. They are so small, and she is so big.

She shows no signs of imprinting on them, but definitely with our sheep who we just got. However, she was raised to 10 weeks with sheep. Could it have stuck with her since that age?

Should I interfere with her playing with the sheep? I have been. One ewe had a bloody nose from head butting her so much (as the pup was annoying her with playing).

I am not familiar as I should be with how LGD's are prepared for duty with sheep / goats. I have watched pups reared with future charges in the accompany of adult dogs already on job and apparently the adults do most of additional training. At work pups have been brought up with sheep / goats with mixed results and problems were typically associated with pups playing rough with charges. One of the more experienced farm hands was in the practice of reserving a particularly tough doe for purpose of tempering young dogs which is similar to my use of a broody game hen.

For real advice on sheep / goat side of LGD's job, I strongly suggest you take your questions to parties rearing larger numbers of sheep / goats. When I say larger I mean someone that has herds numbering in the 100's of individuals and has been doing so for many years with LGD's. My method works great with hunting dogs and chickens but I am not confindent my system would work without significant modification if something like a typical LGD bred for sheep / goats where used. Give me a couple years and I will be trying on an Akbash for the small herd of sheep and goats planned. Small in that only 10 doe herd will be maintained so even then my skill set will be limited.

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

A lot to take in!

My LGD in training has killed two so far. First one was a very young chick. Pup was 10 weeks old. She was squished.
Second was a bantam. I was not there, but there was no blood and a suspected broken neck/back. Playing is my guess. Pup was 4-5 months at that time.
No losses since.. Close calls. She loves bowling. With bantams that frightens me. They are so small, and she is so big.

She shows no signs of imprinting on them, but definitely with our sheep who we just got. However, she was raised to 10 weeks with sheep. Could it have stuck with her since that age?

Should I interfere with her playing with the sheep? I have been. One ewe had a bloody nose from head butting her so much (as the pup was annoying her with playing).

It's my understanding that dogs "imprint" on their pack at a very early age and then, really, never again. This "imprinting" sets the dog up for the rest of her life which is why it's important to socialize the dog with people and other pets at a very young age.

In regards to chickens, I don't think the dogs imprint or really need to with the chickens. What most of us are doing with our dogs is to train them to obey our commands to not harass the chickens. Once that is successful, chicken guardian training is done. As long as the chicken are where they need to be on the property and the dog is actively guardian that property, we have success.

With other livestock that range a great distance, imprinting is very important so that the dog considers the livestock as their pack and roams with them. This happens to be one of the bigger challenges for training a LGD with livestock. If I had to break up LGD training up into two simple segments one would be socializing the dog with the livestock so that they don't hurt the stock and two would be to have the dog attach themselves to the flock. Us chicken people only focus on the first part and you will need to work on this with your dog. You may need to work on the second phase for your other livestock.

Note, I think your dog is too young and unwieldy to be with the chickens unsupervised. The dog needs to at least be under voice control and in sight at all times until you are 100% sure the dog understands to not harass the chickens. NO chicken bowling is allowed.

Just my two cents,

Jim

 

[aoxa]

It's my understanding that dogs "imprint" on their pack at a very early age and then, really, never again. This "imprinting" sets the dog up for the rest of her life which is why it's important to socialize the dog with people and other pets at a very young age.

In regards to chickens, I don't think the dogs imprint or really need to with the chickens. What most of us are doing with our dogs is to train them to obey our commands to not harass the chickens. Once that is successful, chicken guardian training is done. As long as the chicken are where they need to be on the property and the dog is actively guardian that property, we have success.

With other livestock that range a great distance, imprinting is very important so that the dog considers the livestock as their pack and roams with them. This happens to be one of the bigger challenges for training a LGD with livestock. If I had to break up LGD training up into two simple segments one would be socializing the dog with the livestock so that they don't hurt the stock and two would be to have the dog attach themselves to the flock. Us chicken people only focus on the first part and you will need to work on this with your dog. You may need to work on the second phase for your other livestock.

Note, I think your dog is too young and unwieldy to be with the chickens unsupervised. The dog needs to at least be under voice control and in sight at all times until you are 100% sure the dog understands to not harass the chickens. NO chicken bowling is allowed.

Just my two cents,

Jim

Thanks so much Jim. Currently she is only out when we are there on leash. She has a very nice big kennel right by their door so she sees everything the chickens are doing. She sleeps in the barn at night without any direct access to chickens/ducks/geese. She has slept with the turkeys.



Here are some of examples on how she watches at this point. The chickens can eat her food through the fence and she ignores it.





Mom goes out first.


She's doing very well with the backpack and E-Collar as a correction when she is doing something we don't want her to do.


Her new ewes. She has this smile. We should have gotten these ewes when we bought Clementine. She definitely showed attachment I never witnessed before the sheep.


and her backpack. It has 10 lbs in each side. Gives her a job. As soon as it goes on in the morning, she knows it's work time, and is very submissive and relaxed. She seems to LOVE getting that backpack on.

 

[aoxa]

I think this is a very good sign. Turkeys continually jumped her kennel and ate random tidbits in there with her. She is submissive and ignores them.

 

[centrarchid]

Mountain Man Jim,

The imprinting I seem to be realizing is to individual chickens. This contrast with what I think ideally goes on with sheep / goats where imprinting can be effectively to a large herd where imprinting to individuals may not be realized other than simply belonging to so same group owing to a common smell. Logic I have employed is when dog is imprinted on a smaller core of birds, it gives a starting point that softens the interest on chickens outside the group imprinted upon. Despite this the dogs seem able to recognize birds as individuals, at least older birds, even when not part of core dog was imprinted upon. Both dogs spend particularly attention to core birds even when they are scattered about in different pens during off season, the attention is of a socializing sort rather that the undesirable aggressive sort.

Additionally, in past I used a coonhound to aid with capture of specific hens or stags on walks where roost could not be identified. I could start walking after a specific bird and dog would then figure out I wanted that bird and proceede to capture it by penning it softly on ground. it took a while but dog learned not go after targeted bird all that hard. I would then pick up bird for examination or bagging, if former, then bird would be released on spot and dog would not pursue it unless directed to do so. Same dog could then be directed after another to repeat process and ignore first bird. This could then be repeated at another walk with minimal stress on birds captured. Dog could do this even with 30 birds running about. It may be only of academic interest but the dog's ability to focus and recognize individuals was impressive. Recognition seemed based on a combination of sight and sound.

 

[ChickensRDinos]

She is beautiful! So cute in her backpack.