Adult ascarid or undigested earthworm?

[BugStalker]

I usually necropsy. That is how I found out about the liver problem.

I should say, no necropsy attributed cause of death to the wormer. (The pathologist did ask if I was using a wormer with nicotine in it, apparently because of the digestive system state.)

 

[BugStalker]

Ascites is a symptom of another condition. Many things can impact the liver negatively. Most posts ask if there is abdominal bloating which can be ascites, matter build up in the abdomen from infection/internal laying, or tumors/cysts. Once a bird is ill (usually gravely) the immune system is struggling already and things can snowball, often ascites will accompany other conditions due to stress on the circulatory system and liver. So if there is ascites then the liver is in trouble, but the reason for that trouble may be ultimately another cause rather than straight up liver failure with no other health problem. There are plenty of posts of birds that also presented with ascites and necropsy shows loads of visceral fat and a very unhealthy, friable liver and sometimes large clots of blood from fatty liver hemorrhagic disease. So the underlying cause of ascites can be varied, and it's often very difficult to put an enormous amount of information in a relatively short post on this forum. I would suspect that if a bird is/was having difficulty with a wormer medication affecting the liver that there was already another health issue that was negatively impacting the liver function, or the dosing was incorrect for the weight of the bird.
https://www.fresheggsdaily.com/2017/06/water-belly-or-ascites-in-backyard.html
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...itions-of-poultry/ascites-syndrome-in-poultry
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...f-fatty-liver-hemorrhagic-syndrome-in-poultry

Often, at least for meat/dual-purpose breeds, people think fat=healthy. It's just like any other animal, though. Being in shape is healthier.

 

[cottagecheese]

I understand your concerns because they are my own concerns, in other words I recognize you as a 'brother from another mother'. I never had worms in the past and I don't have worms at present, at least none that I can see as dawg53 would humorously remind me. But sooner or later I'm going to get worms, just like everyone else, and getting ready for them I did some googling and have been mulling over the results. This is what I intend to throw at the worms first:
https://joettecalabrese.com/blog/what-you-cows-and-worms-have-in-common-cina/
You're family, so that's why I'm bringing this up. The unserious way the information is communicated in the link (in the beginning) is a little off-putting but not enough to be a deal breaker for me. Pyrantel will be my second line of defense. I wish you well, my brother.

 

[dawg53]

The active ingredient in Cina is Santonica aka Wormseed which treats worm infections.
It kills worm in the stomach and intestines; but not worms in the crop, esophagus, trachea nor eyes.
In this link, click "Side Effects" and the "Dosing" and read about it.
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-336/wormseed
I'll stick with the Benzimidazoles which have been thoroughly tested for the safety, health and welfare of our birds, mammals, and humans. I cant say that for Cina. I'm looking out for your safety, health and welfare.

 

[cottagecheese]

The OP is mulling over the latest suggestion, just like I did, so... definitely at least cousins. I must say google took some time to suggest the joettecalabrese link and I saw quite a few herbal formulations and so on, but they didn't inspire confidence. While it wasn't easy to find out about 'homeopathy cina' and the fact that it gets rid of worms, the investigation of 'homeopathy cina', once you actually know what you're looking for, is very easy.

http://www.homeremedycentral.com/en/homeopathic-remedies/homeopathy/cina.html

@dawg53, you're confusing the poison wormseed with the medication made out of it, cina. In homeopathy they dilute and dilute and shake them in between, until only just a few molecules of the original poison remains. And no one can understand why it works, maybe quantum physics will be able to explain it in the future, because it certainly isn't there yet. Big Pharma likes to put out the word that homeopathy is a scam, sugar pill, a placebo, Yeah I too heard that, but I'm sure they work, because they are sold for very very cheap prices, doesn't look like they would have money to pay an army of shills to flood comments on the internet.
Another thing, probably because they are so very very diluted, there is the 'no touching' rule. The lady in the PRID for bumblefoot videos is wearing gloves when applying the PRID. I thought that Prid is herbal, but it's actually herbal AND homeopathic, and this is how I found out about the 'don't touch them' rule.

http://www.thehomeopathiccoach.com/homeopathic-medicine-taking-storing-homeopathic-medicines/

 

[dawg53]

@cottagecheese Do what you feel is best.

 

[cottagecheese]

@cottagecheese Do what you feel is best.

Muchas gracias for the blessing.

 

[dawg53]

@cottagecheese Do what you feel is best.

Muchas gracias for the blessing.

De nada.

 

[BugStalker]

Interestingly, the lab did a McMaster float for the bird that started this thread and found no ova/oocysts. I guess she could have eaten an ascarid from another animal or something (eww) but it probably grew up in her, then died when her intestines couldn't support it anymore, a while after ceasing ova production. At least that's the most reasonable explanation I can think of.