advice for buying breeding stock at shows

[NYREDS]

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I don't agree with that, at least from my experience. I have mixed several strains kept together, and also mated the birds to keep the strains pure, and I have gotten some amazing birds from mixing strains together. I do agree though, that sometimes mixing strains can produce nothing but problems.

Imagine how surprised I am to find out you don't agree with something I said.

 

[big medicine]

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With experience comes knowledge.

With somewhere around 50 years expeience I thought I had begun to accumulate some knowledge. However, on this board, I am regularly told how little I know.

NYREDS you realize my comment was not aimed you direction, right ?

 

[hinkjc]

Folks, the "I'm right, you're wrong" methodology does not work here. Everyone is entitled to state their personal experiences and opinions in a friendly, helpful manner, without others making unnecessary comments directed at them. The OP will take what is helpful/useful and leave the rest behind. All private disputes should be kept private. Please keep this post on topic or it will be closed.

 

[cochinman2005]

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I've scanned through the different pages and agree with some of what I've read and disagreed with some of what I've read. I'm not touching the egg selling topic except to say that, generally, most breeders will not sell eggs. Mostly because they aren't in the hobby to sell eggs, and it's a hassle they don't want to deal with. I've sold eggs a couple times, but have experienced such poor results after shipping that it's just not worth it. And I pack them quite well. My best results have been when I've delivered some eggs to a 4-H group for their annual project, but once the USPS gets them, there's no telling how they will be handled.

So to answer your questions from my perspective.

1. Buy adult birds. You get to see what you are starting with. There's no telling with a chick.

2. Before you buy, learn your breed. Go to a show or two, and talk to breeders. There's been a lot of good advice on this thread about this already. I think Blackred stated that while he might not raise a certain breed, he can point someone in the direction of a reputable breeder of the breed in question. Same holds true for most folks that have been in the fancy for a while. Breeders love to talk about their birds, and most will tell you exactly what's wrong with their birds or the birds you are potentially buying from them. I'd prefer someone hears it from me rather than have someone else point it out to them later and they think I was misleading them. A birds' own worst critic is its owner. If you aren't hard on your own birds, you will never make progress. I would think that someone that isn't willing to talk about their birds would be a red flag.

3. Going to a show (any show), with the intent of picking up some new stock isn't how I'd start out. I would make prior arrangements to pick up birds. If it's in the sale area, it's in there for a reason. True they might be extras, but it also means that the breeder/owner doesn't see any reason to keep that bird for breeding the next season. I wouldn't buy birds via the mail if I were a first time buyer. Better you should see in person and handle the birds. Even better if you can get an experienced breeder to look them over for you. Most will do so willingly.

4. If you are just starting out, stick with a single strain, breed that strain for a couple years and learn the good points and bad points. Then you can make a decision on what to look for in a different strain to try and blend in. Keep good records, and expect some junk on the first cross. You might get lucky, but sometimes the genes just don't mesh well on the first cross.

5. Good housing is key as well. Well made, varmint proof, draft proof housing pays off in the end. If you have the option, make the pens bigger than you think you'll need. The birds do better with more space per bird.

6. Maybe I missed it, but were you looking at Large or Bantam Wyandottes? Either way you should see some good ones at Columbus. Our National is there again this year and the Wyandotte classes are always pretty deep. The large Wyandottes were well represented last year too.

Tom

 

[cracked_egg]

First, thanks for the input guys! Second, let's play nice because I'm learning SO much from this thread that I don't want to see it closed

.

NYREDS, (I hope I'm asking the right person here, I believe your the one who said not to get more than one strain): let's say, just for example, years down the road I've been working on my breeding, but I'm just not happy with my birds' breasts. I've tried and tried, but I can't get them full or round enough (idk if this is even realistic, just using it as an example)... So is this a point where I'd seek out another strain of similar body type but with better breasts?

If so, should I take the best female I can buy and breed to my best male in current flock, then take the resulting females and breed them back to their sire (my line), while taking the best resulting male and breed him back to my original females (not their dams, but "my" hens)?

After that should I cull the "purchased birds" and work with what I have, which have similar blood lines, or do you keep the "purchased birds" and keep working them in? Or am I all the way off the mark?

THANK you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge that I'm sure took a lot of hard work + "blood sweat and tears" to learn, yet are so generously sharing with this board (or you can pm me if you're not interested in sharing your breeding philosophies on an open board, I would understand!).

Again thank you all

(Edited for clarity)

 

[CityChicker]

Tom and NYReds have both made really good posts. I agree with most of what they have already said. I think that keeping a line pure might be good advice in general for most people on BYC. I can think of numerous instances in which that is the best idea. It just all depends. If the average BYC'er wanted a good show line, they should definitely study the standard and find the breeders that most meets the standard and also fits within your own personal preferences for a breed. There is a certain amount of subjectivity here (and I am thinking more from the perspective of waterfowl right now because that is where the bulk of my serious breeding interests are).

What I am saying is that all good breeders breed to the standard, but there is also some amount of personal interpretation and different lines can be known for different looks. Find a line that meets the standard and also is something that you personally like. Even judge's opinions are somewhat subjective. Everyone that shows knows this. For example, I breed Runners. I breed my Runners to meet the standard (although I do have some non-standard varieties as well). They meet the standard, but I also personally prefer the look of the birds that are on the larger end of the acceptable weight range, so I have chosen to work with lines that have that characteristic and have selected for it. I have gotten several of my breeder Runners from Holderread's (not that in general I think their birds are SQ because I don't), including the remainder of their Grey line, because they have the weight/build/type I like and also had good color (which is almost always secondary to type). I have thus far left that line in the way Dave had paired the birds because it is where I want it to be.

There are other lines though that I have done much more selective breeding within because I have seen several areas for potential improvement. You should always be pairing birds that compensate for each other's faults in order to constantly improve your line. How successful you are depends more on your own level of experience and expertise than on how pure the line is kept from other lines, IMO. The flip side of that is even the best lines can be completely destroyed in only a few generations if the breeder does not know what they are doing. I have seen people take a line of birds and in only a few years ruin it so bad it is completely unrecognizable. It is far easier to turn good birds to junk than most inexperienced breeders seem to understand. A person could take, for example, Lundgren's line of Grey Calls (or something similar) and make them look like Mallards in about 2 generations. This is part of the reason why I always find it humorous when I see "for sale" ads in which the person advertises having birds from a half dozen different lines as if it is a good thing that they bought a bunch of different lines and just mixed them together. Ultimately, it is all about the breeder and how astute they are in mating their birds.

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

Quote:
I don't agree with that, at least from my experience. I have mixed several strains kept together, and also mated the birds to keep the strains pure, and I have gotten some amazing birds from mixing strains together. I do agree though, that sometimes mixing strains can produce nothing but problems.

Imagine how surprised I am to find out you don't agree with something I said.

I said, I mixed strains and had some wonderful birds come out of that. I also said that I do agree that sometimes mixing strains causes nothing but problems.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Quote:
Sounds like Forrest! lol


Sometimes listening to the "old-timers" is a good idea...

We must all go through those moments when we decide which direction to take. You take one direction and it could pay off very well. Others take the tried and true method and may reach the same result much faster or within the same time.

I prefer to take the method of breeding a single strain for quite a few generations. Getting used to what you want from that line and what you're after specifically. If at some point, you realize that your a. fertility is decreasing, b. tails are becoming worse, breasts are becoming poor, etc. then I'd outcross with a SINGLE bird.

When you're starting out, buy adults. You get to see what your "hopeful" offspring may become instead of just guessing. I'm starting out on the Langshans myself, only getting started in the last few years. I'm debating selling eggs at all anymore because I'm always wondering when that next "perfect" bird will hatch and help my line. I'd rather sell adults or juveniles that I know I can't use in my line.

Every so often, I might make an exception and sell eggs as a project for a 4H student, but even then it's hard to pry them out. I haven't sold eggs at all this year and it made my stomach feel so much better knowing that I didn't give away my next "prized" bird that I could have used as a breeder to better my own birds.

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
Sounds like Forrest! lol


Sometimes listening to the "old-timers" is a good idea...

We must all go through those moments when we decide which direction to take. You take one direction and it could pay off very well. Others take the tried and true method and may reach the same result much faster or within the same time.

I prefer to take the method of breeding a single strain for quite a few generations. Getting used to what you want from that line and what you're after specifically. If at some point, you realize that your a. fertility is decreasing, b. tails are becoming worse, breasts are becoming poor, etc. then I'd outcross with a SINGLE bird.

When you're starting out, buy adults. You get to see what your "hopeful" offspring may become instead of just guessing. I'm starting out on the Langshans myself, only getting started in the last few years. I'm debating selling eggs at all anymore because I'm always wondering when that next "perfect" bird will hatch and help my line. I'd rather sell adults or juveniles that I know I can't use in my line.

Every so often, I might make an exception and sell eggs as a project for a 4H student, but even then it's hard to pry them out. I haven't sold eggs at all this year and it made my stomach feel so much better knowing that I didn't give away my next "prized" bird that I could have used as a breeder to better my own birds.

Take it easy with that "Old Timer" stuff kid!

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
Sometimes, for various reasons, an outcross is worth trying but it needs to be done carefully with thorough record keeping. My preference is to oucross with a male rather than with a female as you can more rapidly produce a ssample large enough to test the mating. You could take the new male. Rotate him through several females of the current line & produce a number of chicks quickly. By adding a new female you're limited to the number of eggs she lays at most. As to what to do with the purchased bird there's no hard & fast answer to that. If you achieve your desired result in one generation you may want to remove the purchased bird. You may also mant to continue to use that bird to solidify the gain.
I'll recommend a book for you: THE MATING & BREEDING OF POULTRY by Lamon & SLocum. It was recently reprinted & you should be able to find it on EBAY or half.com. It's kind of the bible of poultry breeding & IMO a book every serious breeder should own.
Hope this helps a little. Feel free to PM me if need be for any follow up ???