All chickens skinny help!

[abooot99]

Interesting information. And this is why I'm always so confused...lol
Everyone has their own school of thought. I guess that gives me choices...

My birds continue to improve from the one dose of safeguard...hmmm
Makes me regret that I never wormed them regularly before. I will now.

 

[RachelleM1986]

Okay, my bad, "Fendbendazole" is quite easy to pronounce. The label says 10% Fendbendazole as its ingredients - but what about the rest of the ingredients? Here's a link for the Safeguard goat wormer (also used as a chicken wormer) on Amazon, which shows that you're not supposed to slaughter the goats within 6 days of being wormed with the product, and shouldn't be used in lactating goats as the withdrawal time hasn't been established: http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Safeguard-Goat-Dewormer-125ml/dp/B000HHLVB8 Since you're not supposed to slaughter a GOAT in less than a week, why would I think it's okay to eat the eggs or chickens any time soon after using it? I dosed it at 3cc/gallon in 2 gallon waterers (so a total of 6cc's), then repeated 14 days later. I got that dosing from a previous post from dawg53. At that time I had a little over 30 chickens in my flock, which is why I had 2 gallon waterers available. So that entire month's eggs went to the compost.

Durvet Strike III's ingredients label is as follows:
ACTIVE DRUG INGREDIENT - Hygromycin B......612 g/ton (yes, that's easy to pronounce)
INERT INGREDIENTS - Processed grain by-products, grain products, forage products, calcium carbonate, plant protein products, cane molasses, roughage products, silicon dioxide, propionic acid (preservative), acetic acid, natural and artificial flavoring components, sodium propionate (preservative), potassium sorbate (preservative), propylene glycol and citric acid (preservative). (<- That's a lot of acids and preservatives, and "artificial flavoring" spells out "chemical s****storm")

Wazine's ingredient label is as follows:
ACTIVE DRUG INGREDIENT: Each 100 mL contains 17 grams Piperazine Base (present as sulfate).
INERT INGREDIENTS: Water, color, flavoring, preservatives and stabilizer. (<- Again, "color" and "flavoring" = mass chemicals, plus preservatives and stabilizer...wow)

So where did all those nice fancy words come from? Oh, a lab! Same with all the preservatives, "color," and "flavoring." So NOT natural, VERY chemical. They put withdrawal warnings all over these products because humans with sensitivities or allergies to the ingredients can have a reaction, and those who don't already have sensitivities can develop them; same concept as antibiotics when the flock gets sick.

The vet is who told her about the dog's ingesting Ivermectin leading to her death. And there are numerous studies to show Ivermectin has a toxic effect on dogs with the MDR1 gene. Try Google'ing "ivermectin and MDR1 gene"

Here's an excerpt from the 2nd link I'd posted, http://www.sheltie4me.com/info/display?PageID=5258:
The most commonly prescribed drug on the list is ivermectin, a wormer used in many canine heartworm preventative treatments including Heartguard, Iverhart, Tri-Heart and Advantage DUO. Dogs in the affected breeds should use milbemycin oxide (Interceptor) for heartworm preventative instead of ivermectin as it’s generally considered a safer alternative. Ivermectin can also be found in many livestock wormers (dogs should be kept away during and for several days after livestock worming), and in home and yard insecticides (under the names avermectin or abamectin).

So perhaps your dogs don't have the MDR1 gene, or you've been lucky, or because the ivermectin content is so small in Heartguard it doesn't have the same effect as an MDR1 dog eating horse or chicken poo after the animal(s) have been wormed. Either way, my friend didn't know it, and I didn't know it - until the dog died. So I vote that it's better to err on the side of caution rather than simply believe these studies are wrong and everything will be fine. Thankfully, I don't have horses to worm, and I don't use ivermectin on my chickens, so my Aussie is safe

Despite all of these studies and experiences, aren't worming methods a personal choice anyway? I've used 3 commercial wormers for my flock - none of which worked. So when I switched to something new and it worked FOR ME, why can't I just keep doing what I know works?? As far as worms in places other than their digestive tract, where else can they get them other than their eyes and lungs? I've successfully treated eye worms twice with homemade saline wash, and a solution of 3 parts olive oil to 1 part Thyme essential oil - treated twice a week until the worms were gone (one hen only took 2 treatments, the other took 3). Basically the at-home equivalent of Poultry VetRX. Applied it the same as the VetRX - with a cotton swab on the inside of her beak (against her cleft) until the solution oozed out of her eye; cleaned it up and repeated a few days later. Gapeworms around my area are very rare, in fact unheard of, as I live in the desert, where there are no snails, slugs or earthworms in my yard - or really anywhere in my state (Nevada). I'm really not concerned about them at all. IF by CHANCE one of my girls gets them, then I will cull. I won't take the chance of giving one hen Flubavent (the only wormer that will kill gapeworm) if there's a possibility that she could infect the rest of the flock. But by adding ACV, DE and crushed garlic to their diet, it acts as a preventative measure for contracting any worms anyway, so, like I said, I'm really not worried about gapeworm.

If DE hasn't worked for dawg53, or for you Michael Apple when YOU had worms (not your CHICKENS), but it's worked for me as well as a few other people I know, then why is it all of a sudden deemed as not being a "true" wormer? DE has been used for decades on farms and homesteads as a non-chemical wormer for flocks, livestock and pets. Since we're so big on links supporting our findings, here are 3 that support my use of DE:
http://beckyshomestead.com/worming-chickens-naturally
http://poultrykeeper.com/health-suppliments/diatomaceous-earth
http://cleancoops.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=10

My PERSONAL belief is to use as little chemicals on my chickens (and other animals) as possible. I don't appreciate being told I'm incorrect for using something natural, and for continuing to use something that I KNOW works. If y'all want to use commercial products, by all means go for it. I don't expect to change anyone's mind. Please don't expect to change mine. Since chicken keeping is a learning experience, and I've been learning for 7 years, then let me learn my own lessons. Don't tell me I'm wrong by using something on my flock that you don't believe in. I used to believe in commercial products, but when I was let down by them, I learned a new strategy - just the same argument as dawg53 can make for his using commercial products instead of DE. If it didn't work for you, fine, switch to something YOU know works. It's all trial and error, and researching, and experience, and advice... I've done my research, I've tried/failed/succeeded in many things, I've figured out my own way to keep my chickens. If someone asks what I do for my flock, I'm going to tell them. This was exactly that case - the member stated her flock was all skinny, everyone (including myself) jumped on the worm-and-bugs-band-wagon, and I stated what works for me.

 

[Michael Apple]

Okay, my bad, "Fendbendazole" is quite easy to pronounce. The label says 10% Fendbendazole as its ingredients - but what about the rest of the ingredients? Here's a link for the Safeguard goat wormer (also used as a chicken wormer) on Amazon, which shows that you're not supposed to slaughter the goats within 6 days of being wormed with the product, and shouldn't be used in lactating goats as the withdrawal time hasn't been established: http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Safeguard-Goat-Dewormer-125ml/dp/B000HHLVB8 Since you're not supposed to slaughter a GOAT in less than a week, why would I think it's okay to eat the eggs or chickens any time soon after using it?

We're not talking goats here. We are talking poultry, and what I previously stated is factual:
https://www.ihc-poultry.com/pages.aspx?id=159

I dosed it at 3cc/gallon in 2 gallon waterers (so a total of 6cc's), then repeated 14 days later. I got that dosing from a previous post from dawg53. At that time I had a little over 30 chickens in my flock, which is why I had 2 gallon waterers available. So that entire month's eggs went to the compost.

All you did was reduce the effectiveness of Fenbendazole by adding such a minute amount to water. No wonder it didn't work. Administer it correctly and it will. I won't argue the obvious.

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
I'm sure your vet promotes DE for worming your livestock. I'd bet if you had a belly full of worms, you'd dose yourself with DE.
I learned from personal experience that safeguard liquid goat wormer mixed in water is ineffective. Same for DE, a waste of money but the salesmen love $$$ and will tell you that DE is a cure all for every nitnoid thing there is.
The liquid goat wormer must be administered orally to each chicken.
The reason wormers dont work for you is that your soil is contaminated with worm eggs. You'll need a regular worming schedule to keep worms from infecting your flock, eyeworms included. I suggest that you learn what other types of worms chickens get, then you'll know what parts of the chickens anatomy they infect AND WHAT DAMAGE THEY CAUSE. For example; look what capillary worms can do to a chicken internally and what areas of the body they infect. Do you know what cecal worms can carry? If you did, you'd definitely use a chemical wormer in your chickens. Once you find out, come back and post here and tell us if DE will treat what the cecal worm can carry...maybe you'll learn something.
I've read some of your previous posts and noted that you get your chickens from various sources. I doubt you were dealing with eyeworm since you live in a desertlike area. Eyeworm issues mainly occur in the southeast or other sub tropical/tropical areas. Most likely you've brought in a carrier bird (typhoid Mary so to speak) that has infected your flock with some type of respiratory disease. I suggest you read up on quarantining and flock biosecurity as well.
As far as ivermectin goes; I dont use it anymore in poultry, it is ineffective as a wormer in poultry and this isnt a dog forum.
This is why chickens and turkeys should be seperated: Something you've dealt with earlier this year, and hopefully you didnt lose your turkey, thanks to a chemical wormer.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...oing-a-weird-head-turning-thing#post_13566280

 

[katbriar]

Dawg53 or michaelA- what would be your advice on starting and maintaining a deworming program? My birds are 18 mo old and confined to a large indoor run.

I've tried to piece one together from what I've read on this site but remain fuzzy since some workers are only good for certain types of worms. You both seem among the most knowledgable on the subject.

Thanks to either or both of you.

 

[casportpony]

I'm looking forward to being proven wrong then if that's the case. It's worked like a charm for me. I used to use commercial products (Wazine, Safeguard, Strike III). I'd go through the dosages and suggested timeframes at which to repeat, but I found myself worming them almost every month. In my experience, the commercial products we're weak and hardly effective. I hated the withdrawal times to not eat the eggs - half of their production was going straight to the compost!! And I hated pumping my girls full of chemicals that I couldn't even pronounce, much less understand what they were or where they came from.

Side note, if you worm any animal with ivermectin and you have a dog - MAKE SURE your dog doesn't ingest poo from the wormed animal!!!!! Dogs with the MDR1 gene will DIE from ingesting ivermectin. (Another reason not to give that crap to your birds...) Just had a friend lose her Blue Heeler after she wormed her horse with Ivermax. Said she went blind within an hour, started having seizures, and was dead by morning from complete neurological and organ failure. Very excruciating, slow death.

So if I start losing chickens from worms, which hasn't happened in over a year, then yeah, perhaps I'll cave and go back to commercial products...but until that happens, I'm swearing by DE.

Unless one has rountine fecals done, and professional necropsies done on dead birds, they cannot say that their birds don't have worms, period.

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Quote: Pretty sure people, including Dawg, don't recommend 3cc/gallon anymore. That amount of Safeguard in the water isn't gonna kill anything. Here is a picture of a bird that died after being wormed twice that way.



-Kathy

 

[Michael Apple]

Dawg53 or michaelA- what would be your advice on starting and maintaining a deworming program? My birds are 18 mo old and confined to a large indoor run.

I've tried to piece one together from what I've read on this site but remain fuzzy since some workers are only good for certain types of worms. You both seem among the most knowledgable on the subject.

Thanks to either or both of you.

I generally deworm in Spring and Autumn (before most moulting begins). I don't want birds bearing a possible nutrient uptake inhibitor, like intestinal worms during a moult, since some can become quite stressed during moult, and the need for nutrients is higher. The same in Spring when their bodies are preparing for breeding season/egg production. I have had to worm more than twice a year the first year or two of ages, but see more resistance in older hens. Trial experiments often show the same results. Much depends on climatic, environmental conditions, and the population of vectors which carry worm eggs. More subtropical areas like Dawg's, or Mediterranean climates like mine may require closer attention. When I think of New Mexico, I think of desert, lol. So you may not have to worm more than twice a year.

 

[casportpony]

@RachelleM1986 , I mean this in a nice way... Next time you suspect worms, get some fresh poop samples of both cecal poop and regular poop, stick them in a ziplock bag mix well, drive to a vet in Carson City (~30 minutes from you) and have a fecal done. If positive, treat with DE, then repeat fecal in about a week. Then maybe you could come back here and post the results? I'm curious...

-Kathy

 

[RachelleM1986]

Here's where dawg53 posted the dosage for Safeguard GOAT WORMER (Michael Apple) (and yes, we're talking about chickens, so why did you initially talk about worms in yourself): https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/423896/de-worming-chickens-with-goat-safeguard-fenbendazole I wormed my chickens this way in 2009. I trusted what dawg53 posted because he has tons more experience than I did at the time, and it was the best available information on dosage I could find at the time.

I do routinely worm them with DE, as well as routinely add ACV to their water. I also check their droppings almost daily, watching for any signs of abnormality. I've been faced with tapeworm and roundworm in my flock plenty of times (and yes, eye worms too; I actually saw the worms wriggling inside the eyelid); I know when their poo looks normal and when it doesn't I research to find out what's wrong and how to treat - naturally. If I absolutely cannot treat naturally, I use commercial products.

I haven't had a chicken die of worms yet. I necropsy my birds myself. The closest facility to have "professionals" do it is at University of Nevada, Reno - which is 63 miles away. I don't have the time or money to drop what I'm doing and take a dead bird that far to have someone else open her up and tell me exactly what I can find on my own.

I can't say 100% that my girls are worm-free, nor can I claim they're all lice- and mite-free either, as no chicken can be. There will always be bugs and illnesses when dealing with chickens, that's why worming and antibiotic industries are so popular with raisers/keepers. Diatomaceous earth is not expensive either, for food grade DE retail value is $29 for 50 pounds - which lasts about a year, depending on how quickly you use it. Many people in my area use it to keep flies in control, as there are a lot of livestock where I live.

I'm not going to waste my time and money on products that haven't worked for me when I already have something that does work. And I refuse to give my chickens chemicals and preservatives routinely, when I don't even feed myself that stuff. Definition of insanity - doing something over and over again and expecting a different result. I used that entire 125ml bottle in an attempt to rid my birds of worms, with the dosing I had available at the time, which - turns out - is ineffective by the user's standards. I used every last pellet in Strike III, and every last drop in Wazine, to the T with administration directions, which ended up not working either. I'm not going to sit down with almost 5 dozen birds and administer individually on a ROUTINE basis, especially when I know - FOR ME - that diatomaceous earth works on my birds. As well as several other flocks that I know of in my area.

Everyone's methods to worming chickens is different. Everyone's coops are different, opinions on nest box substrates are different, methods of heating coops during winter are different, choice of what to feed is different, passions for breeds are different, etc. Everyone's flocks and management is different, no matter who you talk to. I do things differently than dawg53, Michael Apple, and probably hundreds if not thousands of other people.

Dawg53, I didn't lose my turkey, thank you for inquiring about her. I doused her with cayenne pepper in her feed and ACV in her water. Took about a month of doing this daily. She was quarantined from the other turkeys, and all turkeys were separated from the chickens after she got sick. No other turkey contracted blackhead, and everyone tasted particularly delicious on the dinner tables last night

I quarantine all birds that come into my yard. I have 6 pens specifically for quarantine birds. Everyone stays in quarantine for a minimum of 2 weeks, and if I see any signs of illness they stay in there until the illness is completely gone with no possibility of coming back. I sanitize everything in their pens after they join the rest of the flock, with diluted bleach.

I've had 3 chickens die of botulism poisoning - they got into the compost with a dead mouse and some dead chicks and got sick from eating the carcasses. I covered the compost pile after that and haven't had any more issues with botulism. The only other chicken I've had die on me was a hen who was eggbound, and I was so new to chicken keeping at the time that I hadn't thought about it until it was too late. Other than that, the only birds I've lost have been to coyotes, owls, hawks and stray dogs, and just recently one of my geese got a hold of an Ameracauna and broke her neck.

I try to treat anything I find in my flock with as few chemicals as I can. Sorry if this doesn't work for you, but it works for me. IF I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO, I WILL and DO use commercial products. I've had to do so several times. But in the case of worming, I stick with DE. Stop trying to tell me I'm wrong, it's not going to change my mind.