Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[Christie Rhae]

The general breed description in the SOP can indicate things that should be judged or how to judge. If you go to the page before ameraucanas the araucana general listing does say: "...,judges should not place undue emphasis on the shape, size and symmetry of tufts, but...."

And under disqualifications on page 32, the very first thing listed is "Specimen lacking in breed characteristics."

So, is a judge going to DQ a bird for laying a green or brown egg? I don't know, I would think that if it happened while judging is in process that a brown egg layer should be dq'd; but a green egg layer does posess the blue egg gene......

Do all ameraucanas lay blue eggs? No.

Sometimes recessive genes rear up and even with years of breeding a blue egg laying hen and a blue egg carrying cock bird can produce an offspring that lays a greener egg. I've seen it.

I would say blue eggs are ideal, but not necessarily always acheived. I would question a khaki or brown egg though.

And again a blue egg laying bird that does not meet all breed standards is not an ameraucana. They are complicated.

Well said! That makes sense to my brain...and I have had coffee so....my brain is making sense.

 

[Tailfeathers]

The general breed description in the SOP can indicate things that should be judged or how to judge. If you go to the page before ameraucanas the araucana general listing does say: "...,judges should not place undue emphasis on the shape, size and symmetry of tufts, but...."

And under disqualifications on page 32, the very first thing listed is "Specimen lacking in breed characteristics."

So, is a judge going to DQ a bird for laying a green or brown egg? I don't know, I would think that if it happened while judging is in process that a brown egg layer should be dq'd; but a green egg layer does posess the blue egg gene......

Do all ameraucanas lay blue eggs? No.

Sometimes recessive genes rear up and even with years of breeding a blue egg laying hen and a blue egg carrying cock bird can produce an offspring that lays a greener egg. I've seen it.

I would say blue eggs are ideal, but not necessarily always acheived. I would question a khaki or brown egg though.

And again a blue egg laying bird that does not meet all breed standards is not an ameraucana. They are complicated.

so if you are breeding Ameraucana's I would assume if all standards are met to choose the hens that are laying the blueist egg pssible?

Yes, but if you have an exceptional bird that lays a greener egg, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Just know that you will have to spend some time on the line improving the egg color.

I would agree with all the above. The only question I would have is what is meant by ""Specimen lacking in breed characteristics" or more specifically "breed characteristics". The reason I say this is because nowhere in the SOP is the egg given any consideration at all under the judges criteria. It's not even on the judges scoring sheet. It seems to me this would be more likely to be referring specifically to those "characteristics" by which the judge must place a score on. For example, absence of muffs/beard, leg color, comb type, clean or feathered leg, etc.

I agree with Jean that a brown egg layer would likely be DQ'd but I can't imagine an "Ameraucana that would lay a brown egg AND meet the Standard in all other respects. More than likely it would have green legs, or too much off-color for the variety or such. I also agree that a green egg layer does possess the blue egg gene and therefore would not be DQ'd.

I can also say that I have had a pullet win BV at a show and there was a white egg laying in the cage as it was judged. For anyone wondering why I'd take an Ameraucana to a show that laid a white egg, or why I'd even have it, I would just refer you back to earlier posts on this thread that I've made as I went into fairly great detail as to the specific reasons this occurred. I'll just say here that she is one of the best BW's I've ever had and I'm seeing some of her pullets turning out just as good or better than her AND now showing some blue in their eggs.

And I agree with, and think it's important to keep in mind, that recessive genes can pop up even after years of breeding pairs of birds that both possess the blue egg gene. I've done a lot of reading on the blue egg gene and egg coloration in general, and thus far it appears that no one has yet been able to totally figure out exactly how the egg coloration genes work.

Lastly, Cooper's question and Jean's response is spot on. The only thing I would add is that "white" could be used in the place of "green" and, in fact, in all probability would even be better because that bird would in all likelihood not possess any brown egg gene modifiers which I understand can be very difficult to pinpoint and get rid of.

God Bless,

 

[Christie Rhae]

I guess that is the challenge... to have an exceptional bird that also lays a blue egg. Just another thing that makes ameraucanas extra special.

I have never been to a poultry show and do not see it in my immediate future but if I had worked really hard on creating an exceptional bird that also lays a blue egg and someone next to me with an exceptional bird that laid a white egg placed higher than my bird... I think I would be fussy.
I guess in my mind just because you can get away with something-does that mean you should? Is it ethical? I mean if you are really educated on the subject and consciously choose to do something. I don't think I would feel good about it. We all know they are supposed to lay blue eggs. Just because it is not specifically stated that the bird will be escorted from the premises and banned for life does that mean that they don't really need to lay a blue egg?

But please take my opinion with a grain of salt. Like I said I have never even been to a poultry show. I have competed in other subjects. One of them is Budgerigars. I used to breed and show budgies. Let me tell you that is a cut throat bunch of people.

Just kidding! Budgerigar color genetics are crazy complicated.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

I guess that is the challenge... to have an exceptional bird that also lays a blue egg. Just another thing that makes ameraucanas extra special.

I have never been to a poultry show and do not see it in my immediate future but if I had worked really hard on creating an exceptional bird that also lays a blue egg and someone next to me with an exceptional bird that laid a white egg placed higher than my bird... I think I would be fussy.
I guess in my mind just because you can get away with something-does that mean you should? Is it ethical? I mean if you are really educated on the subject and consciously choose to do something. I don't think I would feel good about it. We all know they are supposed to lay blue eggs. Just because it is not specifically stated that the bird will be escorted from the premises and banned for life does that mean that they don't really need to lay a blue egg?

Amen, Christie! Thus, my comments about breeders that are recognized within various breeds who are honestly working within the breed Standard. It seems to me the point of showing (and selling) is not to get away with something but rather to get validated that others in the business agree with your choices.

 

[AinaWGSD]

I have never been to a poultry show and do not see it in my immediate future but if I had worked really hard on creating an exceptional bird that also lays a blue egg and someone next to me with an exceptional bird that laid a white egg placed higher than my bird... I think I would be fussy.
I guess in my mind just because you can get away with something-does that mean you should? Is it ethical? I mean if you are really educated on the subject and consciously choose to do something. I don't think I would feel good about it. We all know they are supposed to lay blue eggs. Just because it is not specifically stated that the bird will be escorted from the premises and banned for life does that mean that they don't really need to lay a blue egg?

I can understand where you would be coming from. However, consider this: the intent of showing (be it poultry, rabbits, cats, dogs, horses, and, I imagine, budgies) is not simply to be recognized for your work. The point of taking birds to a show is to get an objective opinion on how they stack up to the SOP, essentially to get a judges opinion on how you are doing with your breeding program and how well you are progressing towards your goals. A good breeder shouldn't be going to a show with the goal of "beating" all the other birds there and taking home as many ribbons as possible. They should be going to the show to get an honest outside opinion on their stock so that they can gauge their progress and get a better idea of what they need to work on improving.

With that purpose in mind, I do not find it to be unethical at all to take a bird that you know has something that needs to be worked on (like egg color) to a show. You aren't trying to "get away" with anything, you are looking for outside qualified and unbiased critique of your stock. Tailfeathers is working on the egg color in her (? sorry I forget) stock. It's not that she doesn't find blue eggs to be an important breed trait. However, there happened to be other traits that she found to be more important that she was working on first. Unfortunately, when breeding birds to a standard it is essentially impossible to work on all aspects at once. The most successful breeders know this and pick one, or two at the most, traits to work on at a time, getting those traits firmly set in their stock before working on the next trait that needs improvement.

Another thing to consider is that while one bird may place higher than another at a given show, the outcome may be totally different under a different judge. Or even under the same judge on a different day! If you are showing to get your stock evaluated by a judge and get a better idea of what to work on in your breeding program, then there's never a need to be fussy just because one bird placed higher than another at one show.

 

[Christie Rhae]

I'd be fussy.....

Ok but take two birds of equal awesomeness... one lays a blue egg, one lays a white egg. Shouldn't the person that was able to work on breeding that awesome bird AND a blue eggs place higher than someone who has an awesome bird that lays a white egg? It seems like it would be harder to get all of that in one package so that bird should place higher. Right?

And of course I am just talking hypothetical cuz I really don't know anything about it except what I read online.

It probably isn't really even an issue in the real world cuz everyone knows that ameraucana are supposed to lay a blue egg and are working on just that along with everything else that goes into the pot of soup.

And obviously I have had too much time on my hands this lazy sunday.

P.S. Tailfeathers is a He. lol

 

[Christie Rhae]

I would just like to add that I have the highest respect for Royce's (Tailfeathers) knowledge and experience in breeding and showing birds. Many times I have "copy-paste-print" his posts to save for future reference in my journey of learning all I can about these birds.

 

[Tailfeathers]

AinaWGSD is spot on. When anyone says, "It seems to me the point of showing (and selling) is not to get away with something but rather to get validated that others in the business agree with your choices.", they simply don't understand the point of showing at all.

I don't believe that anyone, and certainly not myself, is trying to "get away" with anything at all. If one would take the time to read my posts, I've repeatedly said that my getting a white egg was an intentional part of my breeding program with specific goals. Namely, to get rid of the brown egg gene modifiers AND to increase egg production in my flock. What sense does it make to continue to breed birds that lay a blue egg but aren't laying for 6-9 months of the year and when they do only give maybe 2-3 eggs per week?

AinaWGSD's comment, "Unfortunately, when breeding birds to a standard it is essentially impossible to work on all aspects at once. The most successful breeders know this and pick one, or two at the most, traits to work on at a time, getting those traits firmly set in their stock before working on the next trait that needs improvement.", is exactly what I previously said and "breeders that are recognized within various breeds who are honestly working within the breed Standard" would tell you the same thing. I've never said that blue egg color isn't important. I've simply said it is one of many traits that must be considered in a breeding program.

Christie, you ask a good question with, "Ok but take two birds of equal awesomeness... one lays a blue egg, one lays a white egg. Shouldn't the person that was able to work on breeding that awesome bird AND a blue eggs place higher than someone who has an awesome bird that lays a white egg? It seems like it would be harder to get all of that in one package so that bird should place higher. Right?" The answer lies in the judges scoring sheet and what "awesome" is. Each trait is given a specific number of points that can be awarded. The judge starts with 100 points and then subtracts from there for each "fault" it finds.

I have no idea how often two birds might wind up with the same score but I would imagine it's rare. Given the hypothetical that two would be equal in score, there is no place on the scorecard for the egg. Color or anything else. So I would imagine that the judge would go back and re-evaluate each bird. Now, if by chance, they both happen to lay an egg in front of the judge, it would probably come down to the judge's knowledge of how "blue" the blue egg should be and how much importance the judge would place on the egg color compared to all the other traits he's had to score.

And for the record, BarnGoddess01 has never mentioned who these "breeders that are recognized... who are honestly working within the breed Standard" actually are but I can tell you that I routinely talk with a few of the folks who have been involved with Ameraucanas since they began the efforts to get them approved by and accepted into the ABA and APA. Anytime I have a question about what I should do in my breeding programs, I turn to these folks for their advice. As a member of the ABC, I know there are folks on that forum who have more wisdom and experience when it comes to Ameraucanas than most in this country. Some of which specifically warn against heeding the advice that is often told on various other forums. And again, these folks were the pioneers that blazed the trail for the Ameraucana. I received the same advice regarding my white egg layers as Jean gave above with regard to the green egg layers. And it's sound, solid advice.

AinaWGSD also hits the nail on the head with, "Another thing to consider is that while one bird may place higher than another at a given show, the outcome may be totally different under a different judge. Or even under the same judge on a different day! If you are showing to get your stock evaluated by a judge and get a better idea of what to work on in your breeding program, then there's never a need to be fussy just because one bird placed higher than another at one show." Thus my comment about my competition being myself and the SOP.

If one is breeding and showing birds to "get validated that others in the business agree with your choices", then they'd probably be better off taking their ego into another arena because the great thing about chickens is that there is enough variety of choices within the SOP that it's pretty unlikely you're ever going to find very many people that agree with your choices. Thus the efforts to establish one's own line. Personally speaking, when I have a judge tell me that I've got a really nice looking bird and perhaps one of the best he's seen across the country, that means more to me than what "others in the business" think. Not because it feeds my ego but rather because it is a confirmation "from an honest outside opinion" that my breeding program is working.

I also know better than to get my chest all puffed out just because some judge places a BB or BV on my coop card. I know full well that another judge may not have even put the bird in the top three. For example, at the last show the judge put a BV on one of my BW pullets and the pullet that I think should've gotten BV was placed 3rd!! So what did I do? I pulled him aside when he had the time and asked him why he put BV over the 3rd place bird. I still think the other bird was better but I did learn something from him and I took that away with me. Now, had that been a double show, it would have been really interesting to see what the second judge did!

Lastly, I want to go back and address Christie's last comment, "Just because it is not specifically stated that the bird will be escorted from the premises and banned for life does that mean that they don't really need to lay a blue egg?" I would answer the question: "Yes. The don't NEED to lay a blue egg." No more than they NEED to have the fullest of muffs or beards. No more than they NEED to have the proper eye color. No more than they NEED to have the bluest of leg color. No more than they NEED to have completely black (or blue) tails for the W or BW. No more than they NEED to have the proper tailset. Etc.

Egg color should be nothing more than one trait that is considered in the overall breeding program and it should be prioritized by the individual breeding his/her birds according to the person's flock, what needs must be worked on and what don't need work, and the goals of the breeding program which he/she has set out to accomplish. Within this the dominant and recessive genes MUST be considered. IMO, for someone to be placing the dominant blue egg gene as a priority over a trait that requires dual recessive or sex-linked recessive genes would be foolish. Thus AinaWGSD's comment about "getting those traits firmly set in their stock before working on the next trait that needs improvement." The same could be said for placing a priority on blue eggs over the vigor, vitality, and health of your flock. Why would anybody breed from the bluest egg birds if those birds are constantly sickly and yet they have birds laying lighter blue, greenish, or even white eggs that never get sick?? That would violate the basic principals of breeding.

And let me give you a practical example of how having white eggs will help the future of my breeding program. This year I decided to breed my best W rooster and my best BW rooster to one line of my white egg layers that are full blood sisters. My W rooster over the white egg layers are toe-punched #2 and my BW rooster over the white egg layers are toe-punched #4. Now, what do you suppose the eggs from the #2 and #4 pullets will tell me? Get the picture? Think I'll know what kind of blue egg genes are being passed on by each rooster? This is the same line of reasoning I used in my previous breeding plans that allowed me to eliminate all the brown egg gene modifiers that I was previously experiencing.

But keep in mind two things. First, I previously mentioned that I'm already getting one of, if not the most, bluest of blue eggs I've ever had and as blue as anything I've ever seen from at least one gal. So I know I've got the genes I need in my flock. Second, in addition to the pullets from the white egg telling me what egg genes each rooster is passing, I will also have to look at all the other traits that must be considered. Then, hopefully, God willing, I'll be able to get rid of all the white egg layers altogether and set up my next year's breeding plan based on what all the previous year's plans coupled with the results of this year's tells me. But, what happens for example, if I get a pullet from a white egg that finally has an all black (or blue) tail without any speckling in the hackles(!) but either lays a very light blue egg or maybe even a white egg? What then? More than likely, I'll be keeping that bird and worrying about increasing the blue in the egg later.

That may not fit the fancy of another breeder but it fits mine. That's why I say it's all a matter of priorities. And the great thing about breeding chickens is that we get to make our own decisions and not have them made by somebody else.

Hopefully that helps make my point. I understand by now that there may be some who will never agree with me and that's fine. I'm writing this for the general audience so they can see perhaps some logic on the other side and then they can make up their own mind.

Btw Christie, thanks for pointing out that I'm a "he" and for the kind words about some sense I've made in the past.

God Bless,

 

[BarnGoddess01]

AinaWGSD is spot on. When anyone says, "It seems to me the point of showing (and selling) is not to get away with something but rather to get validated that others in the business agree with your choices.", they simply don't understand the point of showing at all.

Enlighten me. What IS the point of showing?

Number 1 under General Disqualifications: All Breeds and Varieties: "Specimen lacking in Breed characteristics" is part of the judging. Egg colour is listed for every breed, not just Ameraucanas. The number of eggs they lay in a year is not.

I'm sorry, but to me a bird that lays a white egg, a bird you yourself are admitting is a "project" bird, should not be in the show ring labelled "Ameraucana".

 

[yokohamamama]

I have been told by more than one breeder and more than one judge that egg colour is a "breed characteristic" and therefore, a judge CAN disqualify a bird for not meeting the breed characteristics based on egg colour. And I'm told it has happened.

i only say this because I am the biggest smart tail in the world. What about a ROOSTER, would their lack of laying a blue egg DQ them because you cannot PROVE that they carry the gene for it ?

Okay now that that is off my chest, uhm, what about the happy posts ??? havent ya'll beat this thing to death now? --->seriously hate pointless and repetitive arguments

----->look adorable
<---just curious I belevie shes blue but looks awful light to me.....? Thoughts?