Ameraucana thread for posting pictures and discussing our birds

[samouw]

I don't really understand that... In any other species, even if the color is not correct, or can not be registered, it's still considered that breed if the parents are purebred. Why is it different for ameraucanas?

That is actually not correct. In quarter horses, it used to be if a foal has too much white, then it was a "crop out" and could not be registered as a quarter horse with the AQHA. It could, however, be registered as a paint with APHA. (That rule has changed in the last few years, which imho, was a mistake) Even though both parents are pure-bred, registered quarter horses, that foal is not considered a quarter horse.

With dogs, if a pup is born mis-marked, the AKC will allow the breeder to still register it (because they don't require color pics with registration), but a reputable breeder would not give full registration on a puppy that is mis-marked or is colored in a way that doesn't meet the written standard, because you just don't know what it will produce.

It takes more than just saying this animal came from these two like animals for any species or breed to be called a pure-bred. First - does it look like the standard says it should look? So, an Ameraucana should have slate or black legs (depending on the variety), pea comb, beards and muffs, and be colored in one of the 8 approved varieties. Second - will it produce to type? In other words, will it produce within the Standard of Perfection? A cross between a blue wheaten and a blue may look like either parent, but the genetics of the offspring are going to be all over the map.

Keep in mind that a Standard of Perfection is not written to describe a living animal (there aren't any perfect ones), but as a goal for a knowledgeable and earnest breeder to try to achieve. Throwing a jumbled bag of genetics into the mix is not going to help any breeder reach that Standard of Perfection any sooner.

 

[saltandpepper2]

I wa

That is actually not correct. In quarter horses, it used to be if a foal has too much white, then it was a "crop out" and could not be registered as a quarter horse with the AQHA. It could, however, be registered as a paint with APHA. (That rule has changed in the last few years, which imho, was a mistake) Even though both parents are pure-bred, registered quarter horses, that foal is not considered a quarter horse.

With dogs, if a pup is born mis-marked, the AKC will allow the breeder to still register it (because they don't require color pics with registration), but a reputable breeder would not give full registration on a puppy that is mis-marked or is colored in a way that doesn't meet the written standard, because you just don't know what it will produce.

It takes more than just saying this animal came from these two like animals for any species or breed to be called a pure-bred. First - does it look like the standard says it should look?  So, an Ameraucana should have slate or black legs (depending on the variety), pea comb, beards and muffs, and be colored in one of the 8 approved varieties.  Second - will it produce to type? In other words, will it produce within the Standard of Perfection?  A cross between a blue wheaten and a blue may look like either parent, but the genetics of the offspring are going to be all over the map.

Keep in mind that a Standard of Perfection is not written to describe a living animal (there aren't any perfect ones), but as a goal for a knowledgeable and earnest breeder to try to achieve. Throwing a jumbled bag of genetics into the mix is not going to help any breeder reach that Standard of Perfection any sooner.

I Was speaking out of my knowledge on dogs and the Akc, I should of specified that. And while a responsible breeder would not use a mismarked puppy for breeding, it is still considered that breed, and sold as such. If an Aussie was mismarked (a breed I specialize in) if a pup is mismarked, it's not sold as a mutt, it's sold as a pet quality Aussie. As for horses, they are more strict in they're regulations, which helps ensure quality horses, but as you said, even some of the stricter rules are changing to allow easier registration. I do plan on breeding these birds, but simply as Easter eggers. My point was that genetically speaking, they're ameraucanas. In my original question, I was just wondering if someone could tell me what color the parents might have been.

 

[samouw]

I wa
I Was speaking out of my knowledge on dogs and the Akc, I should of specified that. And while a responsible breeder would not use a mismarked puppy for breeding, it is still considered that breed, and sold as such. If an Aussie was mismarked (a breed I specialize in) if a pup is mismarked, it's not sold as a mutt, it's sold as a pet quality Aussie. As for horses, they are more strict in they're regulations, which helps ensure quality horses, but as you said, even some of the stricter rules are changing to allow easier registration. I do plan on breeding these birds, but simply as Easter eggers. My point was that genetically speaking, they're ameraucanas. In my original question, I was just wondering if someone could tell me what color the parents might have been.

Yes, that puppy would still be an Aussie. But, a reputable breeder would sell it on a spay/neuter contract with a limited registration, so that that genetic anomaly would not further affect the gene pool. I've yet to hear of a spayed or neutered chicken (other than capons, of course)

Since that chicken cannot be neutered, selling and/or describing it as an Ameraucana will lead others down the road to breed their pretty little "Ameraucana" ...and so the non-standardization of the breed continues. It us up to each of us to be good stewards of the breed.

Note - this does not include project colors, which are a work in progress and are not just accidental (or semi-accidental) matings of birds of different varieties.

 

[saltandpepper2]

T

Yes, that puppy would still be an Aussie.  But, a reputable breeder would sell it on a spay/neuter contract with a limited registration, so that that genetic anomaly would not further affect the gene pool.  I've yet to hear of a spayed or neutered chicken (other than capons, of course)

Since that chicken cannot be neutered, selling and/or describing it as an Ameraucana will lead others down the road to breed their pretty little "Ameraucana" ...and so the non-standardization of the breed continues. It us up to each of us to be good stewards of the breed.

Note - this does not include project colors, which are a work in progress and are not just accidental (or semi-accidental) matings of birds of different varieties.

totally agree on the puppy subjects

As for the birds, I don't plan on selling any but my blue/splash as actual ameraucanas. The rest will be sold as Easter eggers, just to be considered honest. Either way, they will lay robin blue eggs if they're anything like their parents! I do have a project colored rooster, that will be breeding to my blue hens to creat my f2 generation, but that's a completely different subject

 

[samouw]

The rest will be sold as Easter eggers, just to be considered honest.

Excellent! But, I'm not sure I understand your question about why they are not called "Ameraucanas", if you knew this already. <puzzled>

But - no matter - at least you are being responsible! Thank you

 

[saltandpepper2]

I a

Excellent! But, I'm not sure I understand your question about why they are not called "Ameraucanas", if you knew this already. But - no matter - at least you are being responsible! Thank you

I was saying that genetically speaking, they're ameraucanas, but I'll be selling they're chicks as Easter eggers, because buyers won't know the difference, and I'm not about the confuse the subject with someone new.

 

[jerryse]

I don't really understand that... In any other species, even if the color is not correct, or can not be registered, it's still considered that breed if the parents are purebred. Why is it different for ameraucanas?

I can try to explain since I am one of the original breeders that helped create the breed . At that time anything that laid blue / green eggs was called Araucana . We chose tails and beards because of the lethal effect of tufts and the mechanical breeding trouble of no tail . We were told we would never get them into the standard as Araucana . We had a vote and chose Ameraucana as a name . We had to breed to existing colors . We chose the colors and created them . We had to distinguish them from the hatchery mutts being sold . We continue to struggle with the confusion 40 + years later as the hatcheries are calling their birds Americana (spelling) . A bunch of color crosses makes them really hard to tell from EE adding to the confusion . The club took the position of calling any color mixes EE . We get a bad reputation of being very picky because of this . There are several color projects out there . No new colors have been added to the standard in 40 + years . It is a huge undertaking to get them recognized . On top of that some projects have detractors within the club . I have one of those myself . I do not usually discuss them on this forum . I do not care to argue . I have invested a huge amount of time , money and effort into these . Breeders state what their project color is . Selling mixed colors as Ameraucana really complicates things .

 

[saltandpepper2]

Th

I can try to explain since I am one of the original breeders that helped create the breed . At that time anything that laid blue / green eggs was called Araucana . We chose tails and beards because of the lethal effect of tufts and the mechanical breeding trouble of no tail . We were told we would never get them into the standard as Araucana . We had a vote and chose Ameraucana as a name . We had to breed to existing colors . We chose the colors and created them . We had to distinguish them from the hatchery mutts being sold . We continue to struggle with the confusion 40 + years later as the hatcheries are calling their birds Americana (spelling) . A bunch of color crosses makes them really hard to tell from EE adding to the confusion . The club took the position of calling any color mixes EE . We get a bad reputation of being very picky because of this . There are several color projects out there . No new colors have been added to the standard in 40 + years . It is a huge undertaking to get them recognized . On top of that  some projects have detractors within the club . I have one of those myself . I do not usually discuss them on this forum . I do not care to argue . I have invested a huge amount of time , money and effort into these . Breeders state what their project color is . Selling mixed colors as Ameraucana really complicates things .

thank you for the added details. Had no intention of confusing things. No worries, I don't plan on selling the mixed colored as ameraucanas

 

[mother of many]

This is my roo. He was labeled as an Amerucana but I am not sure if he is. Its his coloring that is throwing me off I don't know if they can come in his coloring?

 

[Percheron chick]

He's an EE.