American Onagadori?

[emvickrey]

Quote:
Voodoochicken04,

First of all,

!!! to BYC!!!

Glad you could join us in our discussion but what struck me as odd is that, you are rather NEW here : ) and yet, your first post is on this topic and on this particular thread. Hummm...There is nothing wrong with that but you sort of came off on a defensive standpoint and strongly defending Toni-Marie. Are you associated or related to her if I may ask?

Please...enlighten us on who you are and what do you raise so we can better understand where you are coming from.

Anyhow, in regards to your defense, there is one MAJOR flaw about it. If there are only TWO "LEGAL" imports of the Japanese Onagadori line in which one had major problems like Mereks and Leucosis, don't you think Mr. Hyde's line (the only one left) is the only successful line to carry the Onagadori "blood" to be placed around the states? I mean, yes, repooling is possible but needless to say, how can you "repool" to get back something better without using other lines...and if so...what lines could she be using other than doing line breeding and heavy culling from Mr. Hyde's line? Whats left, as a possibility, is using illegally imported birds or eggs...

In all honesty, I am not here to say who is better, but everyone must agree that facts are facts. The Onagadori males came from the 1940's World's Fair, later on went to John Kriner and later passed down to Mr. Cy Hyde who opened the doors so that everyone can purchase them in the U.S. You can't ignor the roots on how all the lines came about...

As for the leg color, its true that the "green" is more the preferred color but there nothing that says that GREEN will be the only "acceptable" color. As long as it can perform the tail length, personality, etc. Mr. Hyde's line does have some Dutch but he too refine his line to fit the "Onagadori Standard". He gets green legs, grey legs and yellow legs. And if I may add, he once got a 8ft. tailed "U.S. Onagadori" with 36 inch saddle feathers that had grey legs...so there you have it.

- Tommy

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Ha, I love it!!
I was actually just on the Onagadori forum ,doing as much studing as I can, before I came over here, and low and behold , an Onagadori Thread.
As for Toni-Marie's birds, you'll be hard pressed to find much better. I mean, she wrote the book on longtails, LITERALLY, she and David Rogers, called "LONG TAILED FOWL".
As for her stock, she has imported birds, but from Switzerland, (my mistake there RAREROO) She has birds from all the top US lines, Cye's, David Rogers, pretty much you name them, she has some of their stock, and yes, has also crossed them for genetic reasons to Dutch. As for the imports, they were from Switzerland, back in 2002. She acquired the German Ismer, Schurbert Phoenix, and Marc King's Italian Lines, as well as some Ohikis. ( this is all posted on her website) As for what she calls her stock, pretty much, "project birds" or just " longtails" Either way, I plan to go see her this spring and get some from her, so I am very, very excited about, both the chance to meet, and see the excellent birds she has there.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, just glad to see people talking about longtails on here!!!

Hey Tommy, by the way, I have seen David post many times that grain fed to nm lines will kill them over time in a in a 2 year or so stretch due to poisoning from gluten build up in there systems, have you ever noticed this or have any input on that?

See yall,
Aubrey

 

[Toni-Marie]

Hi Group, Sorry Tommy, but Cyes birds are not onagadori. However, they do contain fragments from the old imports, but they are not pooled for certain traits. He does not get any yellow legged birds. No not one. About 20 years back he did get a green leg bird from time to time, but is pretty much gone to this day. He only got one with an 8 foot long tail and that does not meet the standard for 35 inches for at least 3 consecutive years, but are nice all the same and are great to start with. His do contain Dutch,game,and leghorn from the early birds. Knut emailed me the other day and ask if I knew the American that was using his photo as it were there bird. Does anyone know who would do this??. He does not allow any one to use his copyright photos..Anyway we all have good birds and need to set goals to work towards. Such as Onagadori forum ect...If you want to go in that direction or this site is a great starting point as well. If any one would like to ask me any questions just ask. Toni-Marie

 

[RAREROO]

Hey Toni- Marie and

I'm sooo glad you joined us here and thanks for clearing up some points. How about posting some pictures of your birds so others can see them, either here or on my thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=273550.

And did you get my email I sent you a day or two ago?

Looking forward to getting some of your birds.

Clint

 

[voodoochicken04]

Quote:
Voodoochicken04,

First of all,

!!! to BYC!!!

Glad you could join us in our discussion but what struck me as odd is that, you are rather NEW here : ) and yet, your first post is on this topic and on this particular thread. Hummm...There is nothing wrong with that but you sort of came off on a defensive standpoint and strongly defending Toni-Marie. Are you associated or related to her if I may ask?

Please...enlighten us on who you are and what do you raise so we can better understand where you are coming from.

Anyhow, in regards to your defense, there is one MAJOR flaw about it. If there are only TWO "LEGAL" imports of the Japanese Onagadori line in which one had major problems like Mereks and Leucosis, don't you think Mr. Hyde's line (the only one left) is the only successful line to carry the Onagadori "blood" to be placed around the states? I mean, yes, repooling is possible but needless to say, how can you "repool" to get back something better without using other lines...and if so...what lines could she be using other than doing line breeding and heavy culling from Mr. Hyde's line? Whats left, as a possibility, is using illegally imported birds or eggs...

In all honesty, I am not here to say who is better, but everyone must agree that facts are facts. The Onagadori males came from the 1940's World's Fair, later on went to John Kriner and later passed down to Mr. Cy Hyde who opened the doors so that everyone can purchase them in the U.S. You can't ignor the roots on how all the lines came about...

As for the leg color, its true that the "green" is more the preferred color but there nothing that says that GREEN will be the only "acceptable" color. As long as it can perform the tail length, personality, etc. Mr. Hyde's line does have some Dutch but he too refine his line to fit the "Onagadori Standard". He gets green legs, grey legs and yellow legs. And if I may add, he once got a 8ft. tailed "U.S. Onagadori" with 36 inch saddle feathers that had grey legs...so there you have it.

- Tommy

..and you are applauding him why?

you applauded him for using my argument of not being pooled as his defense? lol

 

[Toni-Marie]

Hi, Just go to my web pages to see my birds. Resend me the email please...A few got deleted.... That may have been one that did.. "IF I did not reply"..TMA

 

[TommyVT05]

Quote:
Hey Aubrey,

Glad you could join us! Thanks for your input as well. Yes, that would clear things up a little for all of us. Not being defensive or anything but just trying to set things out. Haha.

I have read and learn from David. He's a great guy who knows tons of things. As for the grain fed to nm lines killing them over time, I am not too sure about because I stopped feeding them scratch all the time after I read what makes sence, however, I am aware that Mr. Hyde does feed his grains but they all seem to do ok. He mixes he feed around so in a way, its never direct so really hard to tell. I personally would stick to David's suggestion because he have been in touch with some friends from Japan and that was whats recommended so I say its better to believe it. Brown rice and fish meals help out so that is what I treat mines on an occasion and suggest it to anyone who comes along.

Hope you have a wonderful trip over to Toni-Marie! I am sure you will have LOTS of fun seeing all her exotics. Too bad I am not closer. Haha

- Tommy

 

[TommyVT05]

Toni-Marie,

WELCOME!!!

I am glad you could join us. You are a true Longtail breeder so its an honor to have you add your input. Yes, Mr. Hyde's line has a little bit of here and there and its hard to really pick out the best but from what I have heard, he usually gets greens or greys. Even until today there are still green legged in his line. I have 1 female that got green legs and Marie on this forum got a green legged Silver male. Although the leg color is semi-important to the "Standard", it might end up doing more harm than good to put it that way because that could be easily confused with just the Phoenix chickens. Therefore, I am pulling back on my collection to make sure I start picking out traits and start MY repooling like you have done many years ago. Still on the look-out for yellow legged whites and I am hoping to get a few eggs from David come Spring if he ever decides to sell any. Was hoping to get some chicks from you as well but oh boy is it hard to get in touch with you via e-mail. Haha.

Anyways, I hope you don't misunderstand my intentions for I need to clear things up with a few others. By just stating that yours are crossed in with imported birds makes it look bad for you since there are two legal imports from Japan to the U.S. in the past 70 years so don't want the bad name of "illegal importer" to go to you. Glad you got some really good lines from the U.K. : )

- Tommy

 

[TommyVT05]

Quote:

..and you are applauding him why?

you applauded him for using my argument of not being pooled as his defense? lol

Voodoochicken04,

I would recommend you let us know who you really are and you what have worked with, otherwise, your imput is quite not valid because you are coming from a "unknown" standpoint. Its hard to take advices from someone in the "shadow", if you will : )
Anyways, this thread is open for clarifications and achknowledgments, not to pick sides, but it seems like you are coming from the "I already picked a side" standpoint which is not a really a the goal of this thread.

- Tommy

 

[IndianaGardener]

The heart of the matter is that there are no known Onagadori in the US. Yes, the Hyde fowl do contain portions of the genetics, but they are missing key traits. They are not pooled for anything, not even for something as basic as leg color. I know that Toni-Marie has known Cy for around 40 years and been in frequent contact as close friends and worked with his fowl for at least 20 years. I think she knows what they are and what they aren't.

Maybe Onagadori can be made from the Hyde fowl if they were bred to a good female Ohiki from a non-molting Ohiki strain, but as they are, they are not Onagadori; American or otherwise. (How the heck did a Japanese breed ever get "American" tagged onto it anyway? Do we also have Japanese-American Bantams? They're fowl, political correctness doesn't enter into it.) - Just as a lump of clay is not a sculpture until it's worked and refined.

When it comes to quick growth and non-molting, the Onagadori is understood as Gt/Gt mt/mt. Note the pairing, it's homozygosity; a breed.

Other long-tails such as Phoenix are Gt/Gt Mt+/Mt+. Again, paired genes.

Other non-long-tailed breeds are gt+/gt+ Mt+/Mt+.

A bird that is for example, Gt/gt+ Mt+/mt is not a breed, it's a genotype that is capable of throwing a wide variety of phenotypes. That is where the Hyde line is.

Perhaps Onagadori can be made from them, maybe they can't. All you can do is try. They are not yet Onagadori. A one time fluke does not make it a breed.

I have a rooster in my line that grew 32" saddles and produced one saddle feather that was 40". Even still, I do not consider him an Onagadori. Why? He still has not completed three years of growth. An Onagadori is a bird that can grow its tail and saddles for at least three years. It's that and that alone. Birds that grow feathers for two years, two and half years, or two and three-fourths do not make the mark.

Anyway, yes, diet is a major part. The full expression of long-tailed-ness is only found to occur in tropical to sub-tropical coastal regions of Asia. This is true for the Onagadori, the Hainan fowl of Hainan Dao, China, and the long-tail hybrids of Java, Indonesia. Diverge from the diet and you start getting fowl that have little to no multiple feathering, sparse and sporadic non-molting, and harder feathers. Sound familiar?

When I see a bird in the US that has a 9-12 Ft tail consisting of at least ten long fetahers and 3-4 Ft saddles grown over a period of three consecutive years, can reliably produce offspring like itself, then and only then will I be happy to acknowledge the line as Onagadori.


David