Angelwing, protein levels, and processed food - Can this be a sticky?

[Corrigan]

I'm new to ducks, but not to medical research, so I guess I'm sort of entitled to an opinion. lol The proper term for the whole loading the gun/pulling the trigger analogy is 'epigenetics'. The expression of genes can be highly dependent on environmental factors. People have a tendency to think that genes automatically equal something, but that's simply false. Some genes can be turned on and off, so to speak, based on your diet, your stress level, exposure to environmental contaminants, etc. It's the same for all animals. They've known this for years and years. They've been able to turn genetically susceptible mice orange by feeding them a diet low in B vitamins, even though other mice don't turn orange on the same diet and even though these mice don't turn orange on a nutritionally complete diet.

So while I am not at all qualified to talk about what causes angel wing in particular, lol, I'd guess that it's genetics and food for sure. I would have no idea if it's the protein itself or the way the food is processed, though. I'd probably lean toward the way the food is processed. It's got to be kind of like how they said for years that trans-fats had the same effects as natural fats, then they found out they were completely wrong or how the corn growers really want to insist that high fructose corn syrup is no different than table sugar, since they both have the same number of calories, etc. - except that studies have shown that concentrated fructose can cause insulin resistance and weight problems that you just don't get when you eat the same amount of other types of sugars. Processing foods just does something to them....says the woman who just fed her 5-year-old daughter her first taste of Spam today. Mmmmmm. lolol

 

[Wifezilla]

I'd probably lean toward the way the food is processed. It's got to be kind of like how they said for years that trans-fats had the same effects as natural fats, then they found out they were completely wrong or how the corn growers really want to insist that high fructose corn syrup is no different than table sugar, since they both have the same number of calories, etc. - except that studies have shown that concentrated fructose can cause insulin resistance and weight problems that you just don't get when you eat the same amount of other types of sugars. Processing foods just does something to them

Want your hair to stand on end? Read this...

"Let me tell you about two studies which were not published. The first was described by Paul Stitt who wrote about an experiment conducted by a cereal company in which four sets of rats were given special diets. One group received plain whole wheat, water and synthetic vitamins and minerals. A second group received puffed wheat (an extruded cereal), water and the same nutrient solution. A third set was given only water. A fourth set was given nothing but water and chemical nutrients. The rats that received the whole wheat lived over a year on this diet. The rats that got nothing but water and vitamins lived about two months. The animals on water alone lived about a month. But the company's own laboratory study showed that the rats given the vitamins, water and all the puffed wheat they wanted died within two weeks---they died before the rats that got no food at all. It wasn't a matter of the rats dying of malnutrition. Autopsy revealed dysfunction of the pancreas, liver and kidneys and degeneration of the nerves of the spine, all signs of insulin shock.

Results like these suggested that there was something actually very toxic in the puffed wheat itself! Proteins are very similar to certain toxins in molecular structure, and the pressure of the puffing process may produce chemical changes, which turn a nutritious grain into a poisonous substance.

Another unpublished experiment was carried out in the 1960s. Researchers at University of Michigan were given 18 laboratory rats. They were divided into three groups: one group received corn flakes and water; a second group was given the cardboard box that the corn flakes came in and water; the control group received rat chow and water. The rats in the control group remained in good health throughout the experiment. The rats eating the box became lethargic and eventually died of malnutrition. But the rats receiving the corn flakes and water died before the rats that were eating the box! (The last corn flake rat died the day the first box rat died.) But before death, the corn flake rats developed schizophrenic behavior, threw fits, bit each other and finally went into convulsions. The startling conclusion of this study is that there was more nourishment in the box than there was in the corn flakes.

This experiment was actually designed as a joke, but the results were far from funny. The results were never published and similar studies have not been conducted.

Most of America eats this kind of cereal. In fact, the USDA is gloating over the fact that children today get the vast majority of their important nutrients from the nutrients added to these boxed cereals.

Cereals sold in the health food stores are made by the same method. It may come as a shock to you, but these whole grain extruded cereals are probably more dangerous than those sold in the supermarket, because they are higher in protein and it is the proteins in these cereals that are so denatured by this type of processing.

There are no published studies on the effects of these extruded grains on animals or humans, but I did find one study in a literature search that described the microscopic effects of extrusion on the proteins. "Zeins," which comprise the majority of proteins in corn, are located in spherical organelles called protein bodies. During extrusion, these protein bodies are completely disrupted and deformed. The extrusion process breaks down the organelles, disperses the proteins and the proteins become toxic. When they are disrupted in this way, you have absolute chaos in your food, and it can result in a disruption of the nervous system. "
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/dirty-secrets.html​

 

[MysticScorpio82]

Quote:

Want your hair to stand on end? Read this...

"Let me tell you about two studies which were not published. The first was described by Paul Stitt who wrote about an experiment conducted by a cereal company in which four sets of rats were given special diets. One group received plain whole wheat, water and synthetic vitamins and minerals. A second group received puffed wheat (an extruded cereal), water and the same nutrient solution. A third set was given only water. A fourth set was given nothing but water and chemical nutrients. The rats that received the whole wheat lived over a year on this diet. The rats that got nothing but water and vitamins lived about two months. The animals on water alone lived about a month. But the company's own laboratory study showed that the rats given the vitamins, water and all the puffed wheat they wanted died within two weeks---they died before the rats that got no food at all. It wasn't a matter of the rats dying of malnutrition. Autopsy revealed dysfunction of the pancreas, liver and kidneys and degeneration of the nerves of the spine, all signs of insulin shock.

Results like these suggested that there was something actually very toxic in the puffed wheat itself! Proteins are very similar to certain toxins in molecular structure, and the pressure of the puffing process may produce chemical changes, which turn a nutritious grain into a poisonous substance.

Another unpublished experiment was carried out in the 1960s. Researchers at University of Michigan were given 18 laboratory rats. They were divided into three groups: one group received corn flakes and water; a second group was given the cardboard box that the corn flakes came in and water; the control group received rat chow and water. The rats in the control group remained in good health throughout the experiment. The rats eating the box became lethargic and eventually died of malnutrition. But the rats receiving the corn flakes and water died before the rats that were eating the box! (The last corn flake rat died the day the first box rat died.) But before death, the corn flake rats developed schizophrenic behavior, threw fits, bit each other and finally went into convulsions. The startling conclusion of this study is that there was more nourishment in the box than there was in the corn flakes.

This experiment was actually designed as a joke, but the results were far from funny. The results were never published and similar studies have not been conducted.

Most of America eats this kind of cereal. In fact, the USDA is gloating over the fact that children today get the vast majority of their important nutrients from the nutrients added to these boxed cereals.

Cereals sold in the health food stores are made by the same method. It may come as a shock to you, but these whole grain extruded cereals are probably more dangerous than those sold in the supermarket, because they are higher in protein and it is the proteins in these cereals that are so denatured by this type of processing.

There are no published studies on the effects of these extruded grains on animals or humans, but I did find one study in a literature search that described the microscopic effects of extrusion on the proteins. "Zeins," which comprise the majority of proteins in corn, are located in spherical organelles called protein bodies. During extrusion, these protein bodies are completely disrupted and deformed. The extrusion process breaks down the organelles, disperses the proteins and the proteins become toxic. When they are disrupted in this way, you have absolute chaos in your food, and it can result in a disruption of the nervous system. "
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/dirty-secrets.html

omg...that is SCARY! I mean I feed my 2 1/2 year old cereal (kix), but after reading that, I guess it is back to old fashion breakfast - eggs, bacon and toast. Thank you so much for sharing this with me!

 

[Dances with Ducks]

Yes, this is extraordinary information not only for raising ducks but also for our families and ourselves! Weston Price has done research that should be looked at by all people who eat and or/feed their families a "modern diet". The effects can be far more devastating than we could ever guess and last for generations. We just don't realize it because it seems so normal as everyone around us is suffering from the effects of poor nutrition too. If we ate right the dentists and orthidontists would all be out of business, not to mention a huge number of other health care providers.

 

[Duck Keeper]

.... It may come as a shock to you, but these whole grain extruded cereals are probably more dangerous than those sold in the supermarket, because they are higher in protein and it is the proteins in these cereals that are so denatured by this type of processing.

Wow, these things are scary!

I mean, I always thought processed foods were terrible for you, and I dislike them quite a bit, but the fact that they're actually killing you too is proof enough for me to stay away from them.

Anybody who is extremely serious about the well being of;

1.) Themselves
2.) Their family
3.) Their stock (be they pets or food animals)

would be doing everybody a favor if they just cut out the processed foods.

It makes me wonder how 'nutritious' the food from factory-farmed systems really is.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/2004-06-01/Is-Agribusiness-Making-Food-Less-Nutritious.aspx

About how 'eggs are seasonal.' Anybody with chickens would know that!
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/Free-Range-Eggs.aspx

PASTURED (not 'free-range') eggs vs. store-bought:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/2007-10-01/Tests-Reveal-Healthier-Eggs.aspx

There are actual significant differences between store-bought eggs, and the eggs you grow yourself.

2007 Mother Earth News egg testing project. Our testing has found that, compared to official U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) nutrient data for commercial eggs, eggs from hens raised on pasture may contain:


• 1/3 less cholesterol
• 1/4 less saturated fat
• 2/3 more vitamin A
• 2 times more omega-3 fatty acids
• 3 times more vitamin E
• 7 times more beta carotene

And this is just one site's findings.

EDIT:
Wording; added references about pastured eggs.​

 

[Cottage Rose]

I would like to clarify that I am not the author of the Angel Wing article on my website.
The author is Bernard Gil and credit is given on the article.
Update: I added the Metzer article to my Angel Wing page.

I have a couple of AW stories...
One year I couldn't get non-medicated chick starter at my mill so they suggested an all purpose poultry feed which turned out to be 27% protein which I didn't realize when I purchased it. I didn't read the directions that stated at 2 weeks to mix in cracked corn to lower the protein and I did have one duck that got angel wing.
That was after raising many ducklings with no issues but I never fed the high pro feed before.
I also had a customer who got 10 ducklings from me who thought he was doing his ducklings a favor by feeding them the highest pro feed he could find and got 100% angel wing!
The following year no AW when he used a lower pro. feed.

Somebody posed the question re. waterfowl eating bugs, fish and other meat sources in the wild and wouldn't this be too much protein...I'm sure its balanced out with greens and such and wild birds may go for days without any substantial protein.

I also agree with the dangers of extruded feeds and the high amount of soy used in most prepared poultry and waterfowl feed nowadays. After the Mad Cow Disease fiasco meat products have been removed from most prepared feeds and replaced with soy which people or animals should not consume on a regular basis since it contains a precursor to estrogen which can mess with your hormones and other things.
There are articles on the Weston Price website on the dangers of soy.

Dave Holderread said of AW in his duck book that when ducklings can get out and graze, eat grass and bugs they usually don't have problems with AW but when people keep birds penned up and give them free choice prepared feeds that can lead to over eating and fast growth which often triggers AW.
If at all possible allow your ducks access to grass during the day and feed them limited feed at night.
(see amounts needed in DH duck book)
Not feeding them in the AM encourages them to go out and forage on bugs and grass which is the best thing you can do for them. If you are unable to allow your birds to forage make sure to give them limited feed and resist feeding corn and scratch feed which can make them too fat.

 

[Guitartists]

So far this year I have had the birds on a flock raiser feed and they forage all throughout the day on whatever they can find. Among the chickens are 3 guineas, 2 turkeys, 5 ducks and 3 geese.... one of my geese has developed angelwing.

I am raising them for meat anyhow... but I do hope to get some next year to keep as pets and now I wonder what I could have done to avoid this. The protein levels of the feed I buy are usually 16% and 18% .... on occasion I have tried different feeds, but this has been the majority of their diet. The geese are still young...... only about 3 months old. The ducks I have had since Jan/Feb.


edited to add, that I too believe it must be related genetically to some or all extent as only one of my geese has developed it (they are 3 different breeds though, Embden, African and Toulouse.... it is either the African or Toulouse that has the problem.. not sure which is which just yet... or even if the feed store had them labeled correctly.. they look an awful lot alike

)

Also.... very interesting articles. Scary about the cereal.

 

[Trenary Duck Farm]

I wouldn't post this as a sticky due to not being a real study. To me, it would lower the credibility of this board.

Metzer Farms has a different perspective on angel wing.

 

[Cottage Rose]

I appreciate the the link to the article from Metzers.
Its along the same lines that I spoke about...too much protein/too much feed although I didn't know drooping wings was something bad.
I just thought it was because their pin feathers were heavy with blood.
I'm going to start feeding more alfalfa pellets and oatmeal.

BTW I think Flock Raiser is around 20% isn't it?

 

[goosedragon]

Quote:
Mash may be only ground. but pellets and crumbles ARE heat extruded.
Just for the heck of it let me expose you to another theory. It isn't the amount of protein as much as it is the source of the protein. Since the out break of Mad Cow disease most feed producers use no animal protein in feed. About the only other source is soy beans. A high protein feed is likely to be a high soy formulation. Soy beans are interesting, they are known to have effects on reproduction systems. Anyways to keep this book short there are many breeders and some commercial egg operations that use limited amounts of Soy in their feed and make up the protein with animal protein usually fish origin protein. The breeders that mix their own feed can tailor the protein content and swear that they don't have angel wing problems (of course they usually have pure lines that the angel wing gene has been bred out of). Both groups (breeders and commercial egg producers) are more concerned with reproduction problems since it is in their best interest to maximize the number of eggs produced.
That having been said I won't argue the case since I have no special knowledge, and am just repeating the concerns of others.