That's what I believe so I'm trying it now so far all my pullets are excellent layers and the excess roos I've processed are good too this is my chance to show people that you don't need hatchery birds they are too small as the first thing out of everybody's lips is wow those are some big chickens what do you feed them..... I just need a little better NH stock but it isn't all hatchery I don't know if I want to breed NHs I like my Rocks and Dellies and Marans
Answer to the Delaware Dilemma
- Thread starter joletabey
- Start date
I'll try and see what info I can find out about Mr. Hoffmann today after work.
IF he isn't 6ft under AND we can get some sort of informtion out of him... that would be fantastic.
Who knows, maybe he's somewhere way out in the boondocks on his farm with a line of the original Dels he helped to create...
IF he isn't 6ft under AND we can get some sort of informtion out of him... that would be fantastic.
Who knows, maybe he's somewhere way out in the boondocks on his farm with a line of the original Dels he helped to create...
Quote:
You may be able to find a male NH at Stocton at the end of Jan. (PPBA show). There may even be some at Paso this weekend.
Walt
You may be able to find a male NH at Stocton at the end of Jan. (PPBA show). There may even be some at Paso this weekend.
Walt
Quote:
What do you mean by "there is no Columbian crossing in their bird"?
Tim
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
What do you mean by "there is no Columbian crossing in their bird"?
Tim
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
Lots of hatchery stock have Columbian Rock in there, but remember, just because a Delaware has a fault does not necessarily mean that he has Columbian Rock in his lineage.
An old Welp hatchery ad was selling "Delaware/Columbian Rock", like they were the same breed.
An old Welp hatchery ad was selling "Delaware/Columbian Rock", like they were the same breed.
Edmund Hoffmann passed away on March 31, 2003, in Kentville, Nova Scotia. Born September 4, 1914, in Woodhaven, New York, he was a son of the late Michael and Elsie (Aker) Hoffmann. Hoffmann was an animal nutritionist, educator, author of poultry books, and a worldwide agricultural consultant. He had great intellect, a fine sense of humor, and was multilingual. His career in poultry started as an extension agent and during the last 50+ years he was a breeding consultant to breeding operations throughout North America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Ed developed several broiler strains including some that contained the sex-linked dwarf gene. He was also an expert in breeding commercial waterfowl and worked for > 40 years with the Taiwanese duck industry. A 1937 graduate of Cornell University, Ed received the M.S. from Rutgers and Ph.D. from the University of Maryland. Hoffmann's 1946 book Successful Broiler Growing (1st edition with Hugh Johnson and 2nd and 3rd editions with Jimmy Gwin) was the first on the commercialization of the broiler chicken. He was instrumental in developing a white-feathered broiler and was one of the originators of the Delaware. In his later years Ed wrote the definitive book on the Coturnix quail and the 2nd edition will be published posthumously. A conservationist, he donated the Muskrat Farm Wildlife Preserve in Canard, Nova Scotia, to the Province. Ed is survived by his wife, Lynn, one brother, three sons, and eight grandchildren.
http://www.poultryscience.org/ps/abs/03/p036nd.htm
Darn. Maybe one of his surviving relatives could lend some advice?
http://www.poultryscience.org/ps/abs/03/p036nd.htm
Darn. Maybe one of his surviving relatives could lend some advice?
Quote:
What do you mean by "there is no Columbian crossing in their bird"?
Tim
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
Well a Delawares are a "Sport" out of a Barred Rock/ New Hampshire cross, Right?
The New Hampshire was bred solely from a Rhode Island Red and the Rhode Island Red "pattern" is a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
So that would make the New Hampshire a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
The Rhode Island Red color pattern is a modified Columbian color pattern that may have came from the Brahma blood that was used in the making of this breed.
The first modification to the Columbian color pattern in the development of the Rhode Island Red was to replace the white with red. Note that in the American Standard of Perfection, it says any bird with a entirely white feather showing in the surface is a disqualification. The second modification was to remove the black pigmentation from all but the wing and tail in the male; and the same for the female with some black ticking remaining at the base of her hackles almost like a necklace. At the end what we have is a Rhode Island Red that has become entirely a rich red with black pigmentation left only in the tail and on one side of the wing feathers and some black ticking remaining at the base of the hens hackles.
So technically there was always the Columbian pattern in the Delaware lineage.
Chris
What do you mean by "there is no Columbian crossing in their bird"?
Tim
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
Well a Delawares are a "Sport" out of a Barred Rock/ New Hampshire cross, Right?
The New Hampshire was bred solely from a Rhode Island Red and the Rhode Island Red "pattern" is a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
So that would make the New Hampshire a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
The Rhode Island Red color pattern is a modified Columbian color pattern that may have came from the Brahma blood that was used in the making of this breed.
The first modification to the Columbian color pattern in the development of the Rhode Island Red was to replace the white with red. Note that in the American Standard of Perfection, it says any bird with a entirely white feather showing in the surface is a disqualification. The second modification was to remove the black pigmentation from all but the wing and tail in the male; and the same for the female with some black ticking remaining at the base of her hackles almost like a necklace. At the end what we have is a Rhode Island Red that has become entirely a rich red with black pigmentation left only in the tail and on one side of the wing feathers and some black ticking remaining at the base of the hens hackles.
So technically there was always the Columbian pattern in the Delaware lineage.
Chris
The origional roosters name was superman... SUPERMAN HE WAS...created a whole new breed... I read somewhere that if you have to turn to a hatchery..Ideal hatchery is one of the scant few that have true heritage dels acceptable to the heritage foundation. Not sure if that is true and havnt checked it out but read it at another site..
Origin of the Delaware Breed
By Edmund Hoffmann, Ph.D.
Canning, NS, Canada
24 December 1995
In those days the popular broiler cross was Barred Plymouth Rock x New Hampshire. If the barred broiler males were inadvertently mated with New Hampshires the progeny would be heterozygous for dominant black extension. A heterozygous male mated to a New Hampshire might be the progenitor of the silver (but barred) sports we occasionally saw. George (Ellis) found one outstanding male that he called Superman and we mated him to a lot of New Hampshires to found what eventually became the Delaware breed. All the other sports were inferior. Of course the sports had to be silver or we would have had a barred red. In those days no one knew anything about the inheritance of Colombian but in hindsight 2 crosses to New Hampshire might give a few homozygous Colombian (CoCo) individuals.
It is interesting that no one thought to get rid of the barring so the black feathers of Delaware in the neck were barred and for some reason there was not much black in the tail. In this connection Fred Jeffrey wrote, March 13, 1996 that, as one starts with the hackle and goes back to the tail, the barring weakens. This same gradient is noted in the pencilled pattern where there is no barring just penciling. But, why the gradient?
Contrary to what has been written I recall the sports we had as silver not Colombian silvers. There was plenty of black in the wings and some in the body. Apparently the combination of the Colombian gene with barring restricted the black. The Delaware could never be considered a Colombian as seen in Colombian Rocks. In the latter the feathers of the neck and tail are really black and beautifully patterned. Some gorgeous Light Sussex are still to be seen in Europe. There is more to this question than meets the eye. The hackle and tail feathers show most barring in the barred reds I see.
A brief description of the Delaware and the White American can be found in Marble and Jeffrey, Commercial Poultry Production, 1955.
In the days when commercial broilers were produced by crossing Barred Rock males on New Hampshire females, a tiny percent of silver Colombian pattern birds would segregate out except that, unlike classic Colombian, these birds had barring on the black neck and tail feathers instead of black feathers tipped with white. That phenomenon was not well understood because it was 20 years later before the inheritance of the Colombian gene was described.
These ÒsportsÓ caught the eye of George Ellis, owner of the Indian River hatchery, Ocean View, Delaware. He thought that dressed birds of Colombian pattern broilerswould have fewer dark pinfeathers than dressed barred broilers. He saved "Colombian" sports in an attempt to develop a pure line. In hindsight he had big problems because the silver in the Colombian pattern is dominant to red. So his birds needed to be progeny tested to identify the purebreeding silvers with barred black feathers in the neck and tail.
My involvement was that George Ellis hired me (Ed Hoffmann) from the University of Delaware to work on the project. Frankly I didn't know anymore than he. (He was a charming but difficult man because he changed his mind often. I left him after one year to teach at the University of Georgia, which made it, possible for me to continue with my studies of a Ph.D.) Nevertheless I remember well the first homozygous "Delaware," a fine specimen that George named Superman.
At that time there was no idea of making a new breed. The aim was simply to develop a male line to replace the Barred Rock to use with New Hampshire females and thereby produce Colombian pattern (rather than barred rock) broilers. These were to be called Indian Rivers after the name of Ellis' hatchery and the beautiful Indian River and the bay nearby.
I recall going to Philadelphia to hire an advertising agency to promote this bird. Stuck with the name Indian River, they developed a logo using a curved band simulating a river with the name Indian River on it. We thought it was ingenious.
The idea of establishing a breed that was subsequently named the Delaware came after I left Ellis to go to the University of Georgia. I don't know the last details. Apparently, shortly thereafter it was thought advisable to five the father of the Indian River broiler the name Delaware and the representations were begun to have the breed recognized by the American Poultry Association and to have it listed in the Standard of Perfection. It soon became clear, however, that however convenient it was to have a broiler with fewer black pinfeathers, it was even more convenient to have no black pinfeathers. The use of Arbor Acres White Plymouth Rock females crossed with Vantress white Cornish males was widely adopted shortly thereafter and this sort of mating is essentially the bird that is in use today.
If the Delaware now exists at all is a curiosity. From the viewpoint of the fancier it was a difficult breed because the combination of barring and the Colombian genes tends to produce females with no black at all in the tail. Therefore "winners in the show ring" Delawares could only be produced by a system of double mating.
Origin of the Delaware Breed
By Edmund Hoffmann, Ph.D.
Canning, NS, Canada
24 December 1995
In those days the popular broiler cross was Barred Plymouth Rock x New Hampshire. If the barred broiler males were inadvertently mated with New Hampshires the progeny would be heterozygous for dominant black extension. A heterozygous male mated to a New Hampshire might be the progenitor of the silver (but barred) sports we occasionally saw. George (Ellis) found one outstanding male that he called Superman and we mated him to a lot of New Hampshires to found what eventually became the Delaware breed. All the other sports were inferior. Of course the sports had to be silver or we would have had a barred red. In those days no one knew anything about the inheritance of Colombian but in hindsight 2 crosses to New Hampshire might give a few homozygous Colombian (CoCo) individuals.
It is interesting that no one thought to get rid of the barring so the black feathers of Delaware in the neck were barred and for some reason there was not much black in the tail. In this connection Fred Jeffrey wrote, March 13, 1996 that, as one starts with the hackle and goes back to the tail, the barring weakens. This same gradient is noted in the pencilled pattern where there is no barring just penciling. But, why the gradient?
Contrary to what has been written I recall the sports we had as silver not Colombian silvers. There was plenty of black in the wings and some in the body. Apparently the combination of the Colombian gene with barring restricted the black. The Delaware could never be considered a Colombian as seen in Colombian Rocks. In the latter the feathers of the neck and tail are really black and beautifully patterned. Some gorgeous Light Sussex are still to be seen in Europe. There is more to this question than meets the eye. The hackle and tail feathers show most barring in the barred reds I see.
A brief description of the Delaware and the White American can be found in Marble and Jeffrey, Commercial Poultry Production, 1955.
In the days when commercial broilers were produced by crossing Barred Rock males on New Hampshire females, a tiny percent of silver Colombian pattern birds would segregate out except that, unlike classic Colombian, these birds had barring on the black neck and tail feathers instead of black feathers tipped with white. That phenomenon was not well understood because it was 20 years later before the inheritance of the Colombian gene was described.
These ÒsportsÓ caught the eye of George Ellis, owner of the Indian River hatchery, Ocean View, Delaware. He thought that dressed birds of Colombian pattern broilerswould have fewer dark pinfeathers than dressed barred broilers. He saved "Colombian" sports in an attempt to develop a pure line. In hindsight he had big problems because the silver in the Colombian pattern is dominant to red. So his birds needed to be progeny tested to identify the purebreeding silvers with barred black feathers in the neck and tail.
My involvement was that George Ellis hired me (Ed Hoffmann) from the University of Delaware to work on the project. Frankly I didn't know anymore than he. (He was a charming but difficult man because he changed his mind often. I left him after one year to teach at the University of Georgia, which made it, possible for me to continue with my studies of a Ph.D.) Nevertheless I remember well the first homozygous "Delaware," a fine specimen that George named Superman.
At that time there was no idea of making a new breed. The aim was simply to develop a male line to replace the Barred Rock to use with New Hampshire females and thereby produce Colombian pattern (rather than barred rock) broilers. These were to be called Indian Rivers after the name of Ellis' hatchery and the beautiful Indian River and the bay nearby.
I recall going to Philadelphia to hire an advertising agency to promote this bird. Stuck with the name Indian River, they developed a logo using a curved band simulating a river with the name Indian River on it. We thought it was ingenious.
The idea of establishing a breed that was subsequently named the Delaware came after I left Ellis to go to the University of Georgia. I don't know the last details. Apparently, shortly thereafter it was thought advisable to five the father of the Indian River broiler the name Delaware and the representations were begun to have the breed recognized by the American Poultry Association and to have it listed in the Standard of Perfection. It soon became clear, however, that however convenient it was to have a broiler with fewer black pinfeathers, it was even more convenient to have no black pinfeathers. The use of Arbor Acres White Plymouth Rock females crossed with Vantress white Cornish males was widely adopted shortly thereafter and this sort of mating is essentially the bird that is in use today.
If the Delaware now exists at all is a curiosity. From the viewpoint of the fancier it was a difficult breed because the combination of barring and the Colombian genes tends to produce females with no black at all in the tail. Therefore "winners in the show ring" Delawares could only be produced by a system of double mating.
Last edited:
Quote:
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
Well a Delawares are a "Sport" out of a Barred Rock/ New Hampshire cross, Right?
The New Hampshire was bred solely from a Rhode Island Red and the Rhode Island Red "pattern" is a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
So that would make the New Hampshire a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
The Rhode Island Red color pattern is a modified Columbian color pattern that may have came from the Brahma blood that was used in the making of this breed.
The first modification to the Columbian color pattern in the development of the Rhode Island Red was to replace the white with red. Note that in the American Standard of Perfection, it says any bird with a entirely white feather showing in the surface is a disqualification. The second modification was to remove the black pigmentation from all but the wing and tail in the male; and the same for the female with some black ticking remaining at the base of her hackles almost like a necklace. At the end what we have is a Rhode Island Red that has become entirely a rich red with black pigmentation left only in the tail and on one side of the wing feathers and some black ticking remaining at the base of the hens hackles.
So technically there was always the Columbian pattern in the Delaware lineage.
Chris
you are reading into it... there are ALOT of Dels who were crossed with Columbian Rocks and Light Sussex to simply sell more "Dels". THOSE and their offspring are what breeders try to avoid and by "recreating" the Delaware could say without a doubt that their line (if it even got that far) would be completely free from a cross with a CR or LS
So, while it is not a sure thing that a CR or LS was added to the mix for sales just because a Del shows a Columbian trait.... if they are showing ALOT of Columbian traits, it does suggest that you might have more recent crossing going on. With most people, I THINK, they avoid hatchery stock JUST for that reason... to avoid the Del/CR or LS cross
I mean, that a Columbian Rock or Light Sussex (or more) in thrown in the lineage. You'd be suprised how many Dels have this.
Well a Delawares are a "Sport" out of a Barred Rock/ New Hampshire cross, Right?
The New Hampshire was bred solely from a Rhode Island Red and the Rhode Island Red "pattern" is a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
So that would make the New Hampshire a Red Columbian/ modified Columbian.
The Rhode Island Red color pattern is a modified Columbian color pattern that may have came from the Brahma blood that was used in the making of this breed.
The first modification to the Columbian color pattern in the development of the Rhode Island Red was to replace the white with red. Note that in the American Standard of Perfection, it says any bird with a entirely white feather showing in the surface is a disqualification. The second modification was to remove the black pigmentation from all but the wing and tail in the male; and the same for the female with some black ticking remaining at the base of her hackles almost like a necklace. At the end what we have is a Rhode Island Red that has become entirely a rich red with black pigmentation left only in the tail and on one side of the wing feathers and some black ticking remaining at the base of the hens hackles.
So technically there was always the Columbian pattern in the Delaware lineage.
Chris
you are reading into it... there are ALOT of Dels who were crossed with Columbian Rocks and Light Sussex to simply sell more "Dels". THOSE and their offspring are what breeders try to avoid and by "recreating" the Delaware could say without a doubt that their line (if it even got that far) would be completely free from a cross with a CR or LS
So, while it is not a sure thing that a CR or LS was added to the mix for sales just because a Del shows a Columbian trait.... if they are showing ALOT of Columbian traits, it does suggest that you might have more recent crossing going on. With most people, I THINK, they avoid hatchery stock JUST for that reason... to avoid the Del/CR or LS cross
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #440
Dear Aveca- that was the link I posted above that we got all excited about- isn't it great?
Tim, so if the Columbian pattern is there due to the heritage of the NHR, does that mean we won't ever get totally rid of it? Or just that we need to quit blaming it on hatcheries and Columbian rocks, and realize we are always going to have to deal with it popping up.
Jeremy- it might be worth trying to trace descendants of both Mr. Ellis and Mr. Hoffman - gotta find the obits.
Tim, so if the Columbian pattern is there due to the heritage of the NHR, does that mean we won't ever get totally rid of it? Or just that we need to quit blaming it on hatcheries and Columbian rocks, and realize we are always going to have to deal with it popping up.
Jeremy- it might be worth trying to trace descendants of both Mr. Ellis and Mr. Hoffman - gotta find the obits.
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