Answer to the Delaware Dilemma

joletabey

SDWD!!!!
10 Years
Apr 9, 2009
4,266
10
221
western NC
I have received an answer from Walt Leonard concerning the SOP definition and description on the Delaware. I did ask him a few questions to clarify a few things I still didn't understand, being a newbie, and I am going to quote him exactly wherever I can. I am making bold some of the info that refers directly to our discussions. If you still have questions, please post them, and I will try to get answers. Mr. Leonard has said he will help in any way to make this presentation clear. His words are in quotes.

"The description in the SOP will stand as it is. The barring in the males will say black and white. The American Bantam Association says the same thing. Black with sheen only applies to the solid color black and the breeds that are black are listed in the SOP. I don't expect any judge to discriminate if he/she runs into barring with a sheen. If it has not been a problem in the past 58 years it shouldn't be a problem now."

Mr. Leonard said he realized most of the folks on BYC are not into showing, but did give this advice: "Breed for good tail barring and don't worry about sheen or no sheen. Their biggest color problem is getting the tail barring correct, not if it is black with a sheen or not. From what I have seen of Dels, the sheen in barring is also associated with incomplete barring. Because of that, the New Hampshire sheen shows through."

re: incomplete barring and how black is black, Mr. Leonard says" Incomplete barring is when each feather is not barred throughout. Irregular is another word that could be used. Tail feathers that only have some of the feathers or part of a feather that are not barred. Each tail feather should show barring with NO places that show large amounts of black or white without barring. The barring could be charcoal black and barring by nature dilutes colors, but that would be a fault; it says black, not gray, blue or diluted black. White and gray is a defect even if barred. Green sheen could and does show up when a male tail feather is not barred throughout the length of the feather. This applies to the male hackle as well since that is how it is described in the SOP".

This will not be reworded in the SOP as the "concensus of the Committee, judges and breeders contacted is to leave it as is. This was discussed by both APA and ABA judges. Another heads up.. The Bantam Dels seem to be made from more than just Barred Rocks and New Hampshire, so the genetics could be different depending on how they made the finished bird."


Folks, it seems to me that this gives us a clear answer. In other email exchanges with Mr. Leonard, he has reiterated information stated here on BYC by others. The outline is important- go for that compact, chunky shape, that full bowl underline, the correct tail angle- no squirrel tails!! And aim for black and white complete barring in the roo's tail. You can make your own decisions about breeding up from the stock you have, which may take time. However, some people like that challenge, and like a long term plan. As a respected person on this site has said, THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

I am going to make one more rather bold statement, and a plea. Be helpful. Let us PLEASE encourage each other, not bluntly tell each other to junk our birds. If someone post's a picture of their Delaware and wants a critique, than TELL the person what faults you see, AND also point out any good features. Make suggestions of what kind of hens a roo might need to correct a fault, and vice versa. Aren't we all in this together? Newbies to the breed need encouragement. Some people LIKE to take their time and breed up. It's a personal choice, and I think we can be of much more use to this breed if we stand together, no matter WHAT point our breeding programs are at. The manner in which we treat each other matters.

Have a good day, folks, and remember: SDWD!!!!
 
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kathyinmo

Nothing In Moderation
12 Years
May 14, 2009
24,541
358
476
(SW MO) Nevada, Missouri
My Coop
My Coop
Thank you, Beth.
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Thanks for the answer and thanks for all the effort and work you have done for us all.
 

speckledhen

Intentional Solitude
Premium Feather Member
14 Years
Feb 3, 2007
79,284
14,011
1,236
Blue Ridge Mtns. of North Georgia
Sounds logical to me. Good work, Beth!


This part is interesting. I'd love more information on that:

Another heads up.. The Bantam Dels seem to be made from more than just Barred Rocks and New Hampshire, so the genetics could be different depending on how they made the finished bird."

Hmm, what other breeds?


Yesterday I was holding one of my BR hens on my lap in the sun. She is barred completely as she should be, and lo and behold, the black bars on her back and tail had a slight sheen to them. It isn't glaring, of course, because the bars are bars, not expanses of black, but it is definitely there. If a Delaware has the same sheen in any of the bars, I rather doubt it would be that noticeable in the light of the room where the show is being held so doubtful that any judge would take off for it, but I don't show or breed anything anymore, so it's a moot point to me.​
 

jeremy

CA Royal Blues
13 Years
Mar 23, 2008
8,123
162
396
Oakland, CA
Fantastic Beth, I applaud you!
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I feel like these statements, above all others, should be closely regarded-

Quote:
 

joletabey

SDWD!!!!
10 Years
Apr 9, 2009
4,266
10
221
western NC
Thanks, friends. It was definitely worth the time and effort, and I feel as if Walt will continue to be a good resource for us all. I will ask about the bantams, as I admit to being curious myself.

The fun thing about this chicken business is that there is always something to learn. It ain't simple!!
 

fowlman01

Crowing
9 Years
Sep 2, 2010
5,475
1,072
356
Sonoma County CA
Quote:
Hmm, what other breeds?


Yesterday I was holding one of my BR hens on my lap in the sun. She is barred completely as she should be, and lo and behold, the black bars on her back and tail had a slight sheen to them. It isn't glaring, of course, because the bars are bars, not expanses of black, but it is definitely there. If a Delaware has the same sheen in any of the bars, I rather doubt it would be that noticeable in the light of the room where the show is being held so doubtful that any judge would take off for it, but I don't show or breed anything anymore, so it's a moot point to me.

The Delaware bantams from Cecil Moore in TX came from a barred Plymouth Rock bantam sport. They don't have any New Hamp in them and the Del bantams that Dick Horstman sells are probably the same as barred Plymouth Rocks bantams are his main breed. Out of all the barred rock bantams I raised, I did not have any sports, but I had a different line of Rocks. (Thompson ringlet via Ralph Sturgeon)

Barred Rocks should not have positive black feathers, so they should not have sheen. I have raised thousands of them, so I do know that they sometimes do have sheen. It is just not desirable. I don't think any APA/ABA judge would mark down a barred bird of any breed if he/she saw sheen in the barring. To be honest the lighting in many of these show rooms is terrible.

Yes, I finally have joined BYC! Beth did a great job helping me research this question from the Del community. Send her money!

Walt Leonard
 

kathyinmo

Nothing In Moderation
12 Years
May 14, 2009
24,541
358
476
(SW MO) Nevada, Missouri
My Coop
My Coop
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So glad to have you here, Mr. Leonard! You are a wealth of information, and we could sure benefit from your experience and advice. Hope you don't mind if we ask alot of questions. Welcome, welcome, welcome!
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Beth is a great gal, isn't she? We sure do like here around here.
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joletabey

SDWD!!!!
10 Years
Apr 9, 2009
4,266
10
221
western NC
*BLUSH* Kathy, you are such a dear!

Walt, you DID it! I am SO happy! Was it a trade off because I finally joined the APA?
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MANNA-PRO

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