Answer to the Delaware Dilemma

[jeremy]

Well this is my current Delaware Dilemma...

Someone is not amused.

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
And that's why it's so hard to find good Dels to start with for anyone. The green legs are already an indicator of an outcross that may bring up other unforeseen problems in future. 5 generations in another outcross problem? Then what?

Since the breed as a whole has issues - - - you must start somewhere. I am willing to start here and work with this. When the next issue shows up I will deal with it - - - EACH time bringing the bird closer and closer to what it is SUPPOSE to be.

NO BLINDERS HERE - - I am not moving away from the standard, but towards it!

NOW, if you find some perfect delawares out there, you be sure to let me know. I will GLADLY jump ship. Until then, I will keep paddling along until I reach my destination. I have spent HOURS and HOURS and HOURS contact people on BYC and Off BYC. Contacting current breeders and past Breeders, contacting judges, and READING . . . . I am convinced that where ever I get my delawares from . . . I will have to work with them.

Agreed, there are some major issues with the breed. but I have to believe there is lines out there that do not have apparent outcrossing problems. Those people should take note and try to make those birds more available to others. And like you, I've spent more time then I care to imagine reading and asking questions on this breed. It's the answers that some may be offering, both in progeny and in advice that are doing more disservice to the breed.

If there are "perfect" birds out there, someone is keeping it very secret. Any breed no matter what, is always a "work in progress". Hence why I started out putting as many little feet on the coop floor as I could. Shake the genetic tree, so to speak and see what falls out. I wanted to not only see the good points, but I also wanted to see the bad. Unfortunately the bad far outweighed the good. But I can chalk it up to learning about the breed. I most certainly now will have an eye for what to look for in the parent stock that will tip me off to this problem. The next ones I get I'll do the same thing. Do I expect perfect birds? No way, that's unreasonable. But I do expect to only see faults indicative to the breed and their parent stock lines.

I have my reasons for picking this breed. They have something to offer ME that other birds do not.
Therefore, they are worth the work to refine and CLEAN them up. The SOP should guide me so that I end up with a better delaware than we started with.

Others are choosing a different path. Some are trying to re-create them using NH and BR. To each their own . . .

I would bet our reasons for choosing this breed aren't that far apart. You seem like your very dedicated to reaching your goal. And as I stated before, that is commendable. But I have to ask. Why put yourself behind the 8 ball (relatively speaking), right from the start?

BTW I wish you all the best with your project, and hope that no more problems crop up for you in the future.​

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
Now that's funny. You have to love the look on that birds face. And I have two right now doing the same thing.

 

[joletabey]

I am probably going to shoot myself for jumping in here, but there was a comment made a while back that I want to address. I cannot remember who said that too many were going for the "look" and not the original purpose of the Delaware. That may be true as far as coloring goes, but form and function should go together. The correct "barn" so to speak, is going to be the body that is good both for meat and for producing eggs. That is something you can breed for that goes hand in hand. Form and function.

It is, indeed, a difficult bird to breed.

 

[math ace]

Quote:
Have you noticed how hard these girls BITE ? ? ?

These are the only chickens I have that I am afraid to stick my hand into their cage.
They are so curious and friendly. They walk up to you and start TASTING everything.
Ohhhhh, new toe nail polish color -- - what does it taste like ? ?
Ohhhhh, is that a sore on your hand - - - what does it taste like? ?
Ohhh, those don't look like the black sweat pants you normally wear - - - Yum yum let me taste!

It is like being in a group of piranhas with feathers.

 

[kathyinmo]

To have a good breeder flock, you have to be a good

 

[NinasHideawayFarm]

That clarified a few points for me, thank you.

 

[kstaven]

Quote:
You are right on with this comment. Typey look, form and function are all tied together.

One thing some here may not realize is that the genetic markers for almost every pattern and color exist in every bird out there. Are they hidden or covered, turned off or on, or with some characteristics only in the male or female side of a given flock or a characteristic that is recessive and not surfaced in a line in 40 years. So once again finding any stock that does not have potential to go sideways in unpredictable ways is impossible and 90% of that potential you will never "eyeball" but find out about some where down the road.

Almost every breed of chicken we have today is the product of outcrossing. So to say you don't want the issues that come with outcrossing ... isn't going to happen.

(I intentionally stated the above in an overly simplistic manner for clarity.)

 

[kstaven]

The next ones I get I'll do the same thing. Do I expect perfect birds? No way, that's unreasonable. But I do expect to only see faults indicative to the breed and their parent stock lines.

The issue here becomes when you look at the parent stock and their history no problems may be occurring. But when you add a bird from another apparent historically clean line the combination of the two lines that been very good can produce garbage. I note from your original post you crossed lines and that will very likely cause you issues again in the future. Carefully recorded test matings are your friend here before you shoot for volume and end up with a bunch of disappointing chicks.​

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
Type and form does follow function. To an extent.

If that would totally be the case. I could throw into the mix a cornishx in a line of Delawares to get the width and size. Then as everyone seems to state, "paint the barn". Then line breed back to correct shape and color. But by doing so I've just introduced traits of a totally different breed of bird into the mix. I can imagine the problems that would cause for the breed as a whole if it become widespread. And would most certainly destroy the breed.

Slapping a Ford emblem on a chevy truck doesn't make a Ford truck. <<walla form, function and paint job all rolled into one.

And that certainly would NOT be a Delaware. No matter how perfectly it looks like one, it still is not. Then breed that back to a "true" Delaware, and watch what happens. Then stating "well it happens with birds from different lines" is more then just foolish in that case. If there are indications of more then one breeds traits at work in any "pure breed", you will never get what the breed originally was. Becuase it isn't "pure", and it's traits/faults will not be consistant with the original breed.

And I'll go one further. Every breed of animal on this planet is a result of cross breeding. But it's only when certain traits become set and consistant does it become a breed. As long as no outside influence from another breed is intoduced, that breed will stay consistant in it's traits, both good and bad. And either of those good or bad traits can be amplified or suppressed through selective breeding.

In nature, selective pressure for survival dictates the traits in any breed. Unfortunately when it comes to breeding domesticated animals, the only selective pressure on a breed is the vanity of the "breeder".

Also (I intentionally stated the above in an overly simplistic manner for clarity.)