Answer to the Delaware Dilemma

[math ace]

So tell me again - - - What is your plan BT200?

You are culling everything you have but one or two green legged hens for testing purposes and then what ? ?

You do plan on staying with delawares ( hence keeping a couple of the tainted hens). . . but where do you go from here ? ?

You've done the research and KNOW that really good stuff must be hidden somewhere like a pot of gold. . . .

So are you just venting your frustration or what ? ?

We are all swimming in the same mixed up genetic alaphabet soup that you just found with the prescence of green legs. .. .

Where do you go from here?

 

[kstaven]

The point I was trying to make is: You can trace the ancestry of domestic poultry back to a very narrow wild stock origin. Thus all the traits had to exist in their origin and thus exist in our current stock. Selection has created what we call breeds today, but that does not mean both cornish and delaware do not carry everything that existed in the junglefowl. It is impossible for ancestral genetic origin to disappear. The traits are only recombined and masked.

Have you ever looked at what went into making the NHR and BR? And then stepped back again to their ancestors? And then back again. How many combs, leg colors, patterns, colors are visually apparent in this family tree, not to mention what is there but masked. And to this day they ALL have the potential to rear their heads in some manner if you play the odds and game long enough. To this day red still bleeds through at times as do many other factors. This is where selection and culling come into play to keep the alphabet soup of genes in check.

 

[bt2000]

Math ace,

No I'm not venting. Though some may take it that way. I have a habit of stating things in a manor that get's to the point. Sometimes people interpret that as being "confrontational". Which certainly is not the case. If I come off that way, please note that isn't my intention.

But breeding what "looks like" a breed and calling it that isn't going to help save it. It's only going to keep the look, not the breed.

As far as finding Dels goes. Well I'll keep looking and keep shaking the tree. If there's a "pure" line out there, eventually I'll find it, and I'll keep learning more about the breed along the way. What's been done to it, both good and bad.

It seems to me there many people interested in preserving the breed. Getting good "blood" found and out to the those people is the only way the breed will survive. IF that's what peoples actual intentions really are.

It can happen, you yourself are very interested and seem very dedicated to doing what it takes to save it. It's going to take everyone to do it though.

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
Actually yes I have, but as I stated before. When traits become set, they will stay consistent, for the most part, both good and bad. Alphabet soup traits only comes into play when people introduce other influences to take short cuts.

 

[kstaven]

The key wording in your statement is "for the most part". Thus I can only assume you got the point.

The other influence can be as simple as a new bird from a flock that has been closed and line bred for decades. This is exactly what happened with my Marans. Columbian became the dominant factor in my line after this breeding and believe me when I say the origins of my birds did not come from those who short cut.

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
Yes I got your point. And you having that trait pop up means that is was there all along. But as I stated before, there are things that shouldn't happen in a breed no matter how much you mix up different lines.

edit:
btw love the sig line.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

I wonder how many people actually "get" what that statement means.

 

[kstaven]

Yes it was there all along and the gene exists in them all no matter whose lines you are to look at. Yet they are PURE BRED lines. It was just a factor of hitting the right mix to bring it out of the alphabet soup. Despite the fact that it shouldn't happen, it still does. Every single gene in domestic poultry has the potential to express itself in some manner at some point now or in the distant future.

 

[kstaven]

btw love the sig line.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
I wonder how many people actually "get" what that statement means.

I would have to say that all the people I hang with get it.​

 

[bt2000]

Quote:
I would have to say that all the people I hang with get it.

Then I find myself to be in good company.

 

[math ace]

Quote:
This is what I have found - --

Some people think that preserving the breed just means owning something called "delaware". With this mind set, they are planning on breeding and have no knowledge of the culling practices needed to maintain the breed or improve the breed towards the SOP. This means each generation gets further away from what it is to be a delaware.

I contacted many people on the delaware breeders list and found that many had stock originally from hatcheries and were just letting them free range and breed williy nilly. I think , and just my opinion, that some selective breeding practices are going to have to be incorporated to improve the delawares.

To improve the breed, culling practices need to be improved too. When TNCHICKENUT identified what was lacking on my roo, she was doing the teaching. She was helping teach "culling" practices. She was speaking to me, BUT anyone following the thread - - - Delawares . . . genetics for dummies - - - could learn something from that post. It only takes one generation of bad culling practices to ruin years and years of hard work.

I hope to see more open discussions like that one. It will help get the breed where it needs to be.

Some have decided that it will be easier and quicker to just try to reproduce the delaware using a really good NH and really good BR. You might want to keep in touch with those folks. Kathyinmo is heading that project. I think there are some others involved to. . .


THANK you for clarifing your position. . . . I got a little lost along the way . . .. BUT I am with you now