Anyone? I have an Ameraucana/EE Roo throwing a featherless tail or delayed tail gene.

[thecuriouslynx]

Hi All,

I just have a couple of questions which I hope some of you can help me with. I allow my Roo to run with his harem on five acres. It is a flock of Non-standard color Ameraucana/ Easter Eggers. I save the bluest eggs on the side for hatching by my hens when they go broody. This year I have had a couple of new and interesting things happen with my current young rooster, it is his first season breeding. His father and mother both had very nicely bushy and developed muff/beard and so does he. He also has had a tail from two weeks old. But...

First, I am getting birds with absolutely no muff, beard or wattles. Completely clean. Their heads look similar to Dove heads. The girls have very feminine faces with expressive eyes. Definitely not Ameraucana breed standard but very pretty just for layers and good in the cold. I do have two hens which I believe these babies are from, and they do not have muff or beard but do have pea comb and small wattles (previous babies from these two hens with my original rooster always gave muff and beards). Are these dove headed daughters considered complete recessives? From reading the forum threads I thought muff and beard was a dominant gene? So I think his offspring should have them? What would make that not happen? And will these daughters genes allow muff and beard to come out with their offspring? Or will the offspring be even more "set" in no muff or beard?

Second, from this same young rooster I am also getting tailless and delayed tail offspring. So far fourteen of them. All different types of colors, so I believe from different hens. Some of the offspring are still without tail feathers at five months (they do have a tail nub though). Some started growing tail feathers at about three or four months (when the hormones started coming up) but the tail feathers are not positioned upwards from the horizontal like normal. They are positioned from the horizontal downwards. So far this goes for the cockerels too. The sickle feathers are growing in slowly but they seem to be short and curling downwards and under the butt instead of shooting upwards out of the butt. What kind of a gene is causing this? What is the best way to experiment with this?

Any help, comments, opinions or questions welcomed.

Thank you!

 

[Firekin1]

The issue with EE's is you don't know exactly what you're going to get. Some have muffs, some don't. It depends on it's genetics. Like us, the odd thing can pop out here and there. You can have an EE that lays blue/green eggs and has a pea comb but have a single straight comb chicken hatch out that doesn't lay blue green eggs(the oddball). Also, hatcheries sell Americana (with the "i" instead of the "au") which are technically EE's, and it's VERY common to get rumpless because of the Araucana mixed in there, especially if they came from Murray McMurray lines I've noticed. My avatar is a true black Ameraucana, and his tail feathers hang down., my blue roo, his are more free standing but he's also not as large as my black and a different build, again, different genetics. Your rooster sounds as if he has a very interesting gene pool behind him.

 

[thecuriouslynx]

Firekin 1 , Thank you for your response. I,ve been working long hours, just now been able to get back to the computer. Yes, EE's are apparently challenging. I find I like this! I like most of the variations I am getting and want to play with it more.
Your avatar rooster is amazing! VERY handsome. My young red and black cockerel and my white and black silver cockerels tails are growing in like your blacks. So are many of the pullets. So far I have one blue grey cockerel who has not grown a tail yet. He has a tail nub but feathers are just short and draping down around it and his butt.
Interesting gene pool, I agree. But kind of confusing. None of my birds come from a hatchery that I know of. My first rooster came from a long line of farm roosters, then I kept one of his sons, my current rooster. Since I just have a small farm the rooster and all of the hens live together in one large horse shed converted to coop and play all day in the horse/goat sheds, pasture and around the house and garden on five fenced in acres. Sooo, I have my job cut out for me trying to figure out which hens are the other half of the results! LOL! The rooster is definitely the wildcard here though since the hens have not thrown anything like this before. They look funny but I kinda like the muff, beard and no tail look! ROFL! Do other people like these or am I one of the few?
I will keep the current rooster and also his best tail less boy. Do you know if the tail less gene is dominant? Will tail less bred to tail less produce more? The other pic is so far in my opinion, his best tail less son.
How many birds do you have? Do you show? It sounds like you like a variety of combinations also.

 

[Illia]

The thing with your missing muffs/beards is that yes, those are a dominant gene, however if a bird is heterozygous for it and only carries one copy for the gene, and is bred to another bird who is the same - 25% of the offspring will end up clean-faced. That's what is happening. If you want to prevent that, pretty much replace your current rooster and look for birds with very large, full, nicely developed beards. Often you can tell when a bird is heterozygous for it as their beards are kind of scruffy and small, sometimes with their throats a little exposed or with small wattles poking out of the beard fluff. This happens for any bird with dominant genes - If you have two birds who aren't 100% for something, you're going to end up with some who don't carry the gene at all. If you breed a clean faced "dove" type head you'll continue to have that, although of course if you breed it back to a bearded bird, you'll see more small beards pop up as well. In fact, if you want to know if your birds are homozygous or het for beards, breed it to a clean-faced one. If you get 100% offspring with beards you're fine. If some come out clean faced, that means your bearded guy isn't 100% bearded.

Sickles coming in downward are yeah a sign of a rumpless bird's genes floating around. It happens. They're mutts, so, you could come up with anything. Most tail traits are in fact genetic and will pass on. How they do depends on who you breed them to. Birds with tails that come out from below and point down may throw more like that in the future, it's referred to as "partial tailed." Tailless is a dominant trait, yes. Breeding a rumpless/tailless bird to birds with tails will get you partially tailed, rumpless/tailless, and tailed birds. The rumpless/tailless will mostly appear in females, since they don't have the male tail feathers to peak from behind the rest of their feathers. They'll essentially look like Araucanas, especially if they end up clean-faced Easter Eggers.

Good luck with your birds!

Edited to add: Rumpless EE's are NOT common, and there is almost if absolutely no true Araucana in Murray McMurray's stock. The name Araucana is thrown in there simply because they're one of the last hatcheries to stop their denial over the lie that they supposedly have Araucana stock or Araucana crosses.

 

[thecuriouslynx]

Illia, Thank you for your response. This makes a lot of sense to me now. I brought into my flock this spring a few Ameraucana's that a breeder was culling, I think this came in then. My older girls have wonderful muffs and beards. From the looks of the babies I have on the ground, about 110 of them all enjoying themselves on five acres, the roo is not 100% . I have four generations right now on the ground and have been breeding to reduce combs and get a better blue of egg. My first few hatches were from my old roo and it seems my breeding is doing ok for what I wanted since the girls barely have any comb at all and are laying a nice respectable little blue egg. The hatches from this roo are the ones which are all over the place. I am very intrigued with the tailless things though. And I really like the little grey guy. I know they are mutts, but they are my mutts and I am very fond of all of them. They give me pleasure, enjoyment to watch and food for the table. Your information and experience helps me a lot. I will experiment with the little grey guy and the little tailless girls I get. The current roo though is doing behavioral things which is starting to get him on my dinner list. I will not keep a roo that has no good manners with the girls.

Thank you for your imput!

 

[Firekin1]

I have purchased EE'S in the past from Murray lines that have thrown out rumpless, though more were tail less. I have a few friends who have rumpless and tail less EE's s who are breeding just for that reason that also descended from birds bought from Murray. Perhaps it's just years of inbreeding, I don't know. What is not common in one place can be very common in others. Here true ameraucana are a dime a dozen though some colors are not, but I've noticed in many parts of the US they are considered rare.

 

[thecuriouslynx]

Firekin,
Your friends who are breeding rumples and tail less birds, do they have pictures they would like to share? I would love to see them. Perhaps they are looking for these genes but with different blood for their flock? I am located in the Pacific Northwest USA, Washington State. I don't know about the Murray lines, I have never bought chicks from any hatchery however, I do not know the origin though of the few adult hens that I started my flock with or have brought into my flock.

 

[thecuriouslynx]

The thing with your missing muffs/beards is that yes, those are a dominant gene, however if a bird is heterozygous for it and only carries one copy for the gene, and is bred to another bird who is the same - 25% of the offspring will end up clean-faced. That's what is happening. If you want to prevent that, pretty much replace your current rooster and look for birds with very large, full, nicely developed beards. Often you can tell when a bird is heterozygous for it as their beards are kind of scruffy and small, sometimes with their throats a little exposed or with small wattles poking out of the beard fluff. This happens for any bird with dominant genes - If you have two birds who aren't 100% for something, you're going to end up with some who don't carry the gene at all. If you breed a clean faced "dove" type head you'll continue to have that, although of course if you breed it back to a bearded bird, you'll see more small beards pop up as well. In fact, if you want to know if your birds are homozygous or het for beards, breed it to a clean-faced one. If you get 100% offspring with beards you're fine. If some come out clean faced, that means your bearded guy isn't 100% bearded.

Sickles coming in downward are yeah a sign of a rumpless bird's genes floating around. It happens. They're mutts, so, you could come up with anything. Most tail traits are in fact genetic and will pass on. How they do depends on who you breed them to. Birds with tails that come out from below and point down may throw more like that in the future, it's referred to as "partial tailed." Tailless is a dominant trait, yes. Breeding a rumpless/tailless bird to birds with tails will get you partially tailed, rumpless/tailless, and tailed birds. The rumpless/tailless will mostly appear in females, since they don't have the male tail feathers to peak from behind the rest of their feathers. They'll essentially look like Araucanas, especially if they end up clean-faced Easter Eggers.

Good luck with your birds!

Edited to add: Rumpless EE's are NOT common, and there is almost if absolutely no true Araucana in Murray McMurray's stock. The name Araucana is thrown in there simply because they're one of the last hatcheries to stop their denial over the lie that they supposedly have Araucana stock or Araucana crosses.

Hi Illia! These are the two best tail less EE boys so far. The pics are a couple weeks old but the first is of my little grey cockerel. I love his color and would like to breed him next year to a few of my grey/blue girls and the tail less girls. He has a muff and beard. So he is dominant for each end of him? LOL! Dominant for muff and beard and, dominant for tail less? I am not so attracted to the other one who is a couple weeks younger and takes his color more after their father. Would crossing either of them with half sisters be disastrous?

 

[Illia]

Are you sure those are both boys? The photo on the right is of a pullet. I could be wrong but I'm preeeetty sure that's a pullet. Anyway yeah the blue guy on the left carries at least one allele for beard/muffs, so at the least you'll get half of your offspring with beard/muffs regardless of who you breed him to. But depending on who you breed him to, the outcome will be purely chickens with beards, 50% chicks with beards, or 25% chicks with beards. The tail, I'd say if you bred him to tailed birds you'll get at least 50% offspring with tails, the others will probably be partially tailed, and who knows, with a butt like his you might hardly get any tailless birds. He looks partially tailed to me, just, young.

 

[aoxa]

I wonder why this happens. I had a Barred Rock from good lines end up rumpless. He looked like a walking basketball.