Anyone in the US have the Sepia Muscovy gene?

[iajewel]

I think you are right. We are calling colors very differently. The actual names we use to describe colors I think is a large problem in Muscovy conversation. I have been working on a website to show photos of colors and label them with appropriate labels in efforts to have the names and colors understood. Im however missing many photos to complete this project.

Bronze is rare in the US I do think that people think that a faded black, ( black that the sun has faded) or blacks before molt when the feathers fade and die off, are to often called bronze, only to find that when the bird molts, it is a black bird. Just as Chocolate will appear buff before molt.

To call the colors by the right names and have a good eye to see the right colors is very important, and something we ( at least here in the US) are lazy in doing. I think the problem here is the lack of intense interest. people love the ducks, but most unless showing do not get very involved in color genetics as they do with horses and dogs. The show people have few set self colors. There for there are few variations in their clutches, if any. They have black, blue, chocolate, white, etc.. and the beauty of the Muscovy and all its rainbow is lost to the show tables. This is a crime and has those that are truly interested, again, not learning the color identifications of the rainbow.

 

[Schaman]

Bronze is rare in the US I do think that people think that a faded black, ( black that the sun has faded) or blacks before molt when the feathers fade and die off, are to often called bronze, only to find that when the bird molts, it is a black bird. Just as Chocolate will appear buff before molt.

Aha, a little bit brownish that some of the real wild myscovy ducks have which is debated whether it is sun fading or not.

I have 2 grown wild wildtype myscovy ducks that really are more brownish than the other blacks here. They live in the same place and with the same sun but differ anyway. I believe not only that due to fading.​

 

[iajewel]

Have you seen this color? I think but Im not sure that this is what the mutation is my ducks are showing. I think it is not known in the US because people that have ducklings like this may think they are mules, and send them to slaughter, not knowing they are special.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Schaman]

I would say that the drawing is a pair of wild muscovy ducks. Drawing colors could differ a lot but there is wild muscovy ducks with brown in feathers. Fade or not, I dont know for sure.

Even in my country slaughtered suspected hybrids with brown, in itself, and unfortunately even some with sepia because of misunderstandings. The brown hue of the hybrids is completely different from the sepia color.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/hybridbirds/discuss/72157602472617276/

 

[ian4379]

i'm still confused with sepia and bronze being different colours. as shown in my photo's at the the start of the thread, there are 4 different shades of bronze just in brids at my house. how do they vary from sepia, if in fact they are seperate genes. is it possible that you are confusing different shades as being different colours, for example these birds are all blue.

the sepia duck that schaman has posted looks the same as my bronze and lots of bronzes that i have seen.

if in fact sepia and bronze are different genes, i do suppose its possible that we in australia are labelling all shades of bronze as bronze when in fact they are two different colours being sepia and bronze.

 

[iajewel]

The colors in those birds are not bronze or sepia. I have birds with that and they normally out grow it. Its normal from what I see.

 

[ian4379]

Quote:
i know the above birds aren't bronze or sepia, as i wrote they are blue. i was refferring to the birds i posted earlier on in the thread.

 

[iajewel]

ARe you sure it was this thread? I went back and Im not finding any from you?

 

[rollyard]

Quote:
I am still confused with this? Sure, in Taibel' study sepia ducklings reported as khaki with yellow feet/pink bills, while adults various shades of brown/bronze plumage & yellow/white feet etc, but in what other ways did the birds in that study differ genetically to some of the birds being bred with today?

It is unfortunate that significance of some of what member AquaEyes was trying to portray not realised. Some other factor maybe different to, or not present in birds described in some instances (eg, Taibel' study) may have altered outcomes in those birds. For example, the birds in Taibel' study may have been wild-type based blacks? What if dusky based blacks do express a little differently in some traits other than just duckling down colour/pattern, eg pheomelanin extended into feet/legs, or maybe some other factor involved? Just because one bronze/brown bird has brown legs & another doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean that the factor for "brown" (eg sepia) isn't the same in both; the brown bird with brown legs could be genetically similar to that with yellow legs except for an additional/alternative gene that allows melanin extension/expression in the legs/skin.

Quote:
See above. According to Taibel' study, typical traits expressed in sepia type birds did include yellow/white feet & pink bills. Plumage colour varies as per Taibel' study!

Quote:
I don't feel that we can really say that factor for "Sepia" isn't the same as factor for "Bronze", nor I guess that they are one & the same, without testing, particularly when based on limited info available & no access to birds themselves.

I have in the past assumed "bronze" & "sepia" to be one & the same. It could well be that some "brown" (not including chocs) birds are genetically different to others, & maybe those in earlier studies, I certainly don't know. But I think we need to keep in mind that conclusions may not be as straight forward as they might seem in some instances.

I guess one of the positives out of such discussions is that they help to make us all think!

Cheers PS page #1, post #6 this thread has photos of various shades of brown birds

 

[iajewel]

What Im learning here is two fold.
1) That here in the US we can only read about it. This means, we have never seen it, and thus, have no hands on experience. We do have bronze, but not sepia in the US. This alone tells me that it would be unrealistic to say they are the same. There are also different codes for each, again indicating that bronze is not sepia.

The other issue is that we, as being a world wide population describe color differently. In reading the Italian study The words "dove" and "pearl" are used. Terms we don't use in the US. This leaves me to guess at what actual color is being discussed. The colors are also talked about as "novel, or novelty" does this mean rare? or a color not used in show? Again, giving a chance at error in description of terms and colors. Using genetic codes Such as C for white heads helps, as this limits the error in terms. Simple things like in Australia a Chuck is a Chicken in the US. If you don't know a Chuck is a chicken but understand it is a bird, this may allow a reader to believe that they have a bird we do not, here in the states.
With out hands on, and with out knowing, working with and actually seeing colors and how they act when bred to find receive and dominate traits and a standard color format, I don't think that any American can in all honesty know, or give good comment on the colors of the Sepia. I can describe the color Red to a blind man all day long, however, will he ever really know what red is? I think with Sepia in the US, until it comes here and we can see it and work with it, this is our red, and we can't truly know it.